Results 1 to 30 of 1362

Thread: [EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Unbowed Unbent Unbroken Member Lazy O's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    [21:16:17] [Gaius - 5.115.253.115]
    i m not camping , its elegant strategy of waiting

  2. #2
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Prisoners upon this rock, flying without wings...
    Posts
    11,087

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy O View Post
    Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....
    Much like the mercenaries reaching Pontos during the Anabasis, didn't see the people living in the colonies as "fully Greeks"; so it was in all the other areas so far from Hellas (due to political or geographical matters)...
    It wasn't a black or white thing, it was all grey...

  3. #3

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    So we wait and pray for gg2 to correct the Kretan monsters? Bahahah. Bosphorans remain the top dog then, eh? Those Greeks in the East must have learned quickly then!
    It's likely that a large number of the "Greeks" you mention would either be of mixed race or ehtnically Scythians due to heavy Scythian settlement. Secondly, the access to the more powerful bows would be much, much greater as many Scythians lived in these Greek colonies and they were bordered by Steppe tribes. Lastly, they would really be forced to adopt the more effective bows and train archers to fend off raids by steppe tribes. So whilst Cretans trained for the sake of being mercinaries, these guys would need to train for the sake of defending against horse archers etc. In other words, their need for archery was more urgent; their access to superior bows greater.


    Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....
    I kind of agree with this in the sense that I think a lot of eastern/steppe foot archers should have attack/range/accuracy at the highest level (equal to bosphorans); however thats not the same thing as saying they are the best archer unit (since bosphorans have heavy armor, they can resist arrow fire much better). This will also work in favor of Cretans.

    This would leave Bosporans and Elite Dacians as the only expensive foot archer units, assuming we reduced Cretans' accuracy and cost to tier 2 levels.
    I don't think their nerfing should be limited to accuracy, it should also include bow range and attack (not a huge nerf, but significant enough). I also do not think their cost should be decreased too significantly, since they were mercs, and would be pretty expensive to hire (apart from KH factional units maybe). They were also in relatively low numbers. Basically, the same logic as applied to Baelaeric slingers should apply to them as well...low unit numbers, relative higher cost than factional units.

    To balance it out historically, I'd say maybe take away cav fighting penalty and increase morale by 1 (they were after all crazy mofos...sorry for language, thought it was appropriate tho :) ).

    To be honest, I am not sure why Dacian elites are so powerful, but since I know little of history there, I won't venture any opinions, though I would be happy if someone could point me to a source about them (Dacian archers) so I could learn more. I guess since they lived in such close proximity to Scythians, it is logical they needed to develop units similar to Bosphorans as anti HA units and foot archer units.

    On this topic, shouldn't toxotai syrakoi be a bit more powerful given that unit description says they are heavily armored (maybe they should be on same level as bosphorans?) and have better range/bow attack than they do right now(powerful large composite bows). Once again, dont know much about these guys- just going on unit description here. Though they would certainly have access to great armories and composite bows.

    So basically Cretans are like peltastai with a bow?
    Kind of, except they used more expensive equipment (composite bow and arrows) and should be a medium-quality (in terms of archery) unit.
    Last edited by TheShakAttack; 10-07-2011 at 01:43.
    "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."

  4. #4
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    A 1600 missile unit would be pretty good. I think.

    Also I'm going to put forward a request to take scary off nakeds and catas and increase charge. I think the scary effect should only be reserved for chariots and elephants. The range of scary is just too large right now.

    I'm also going to request that lighter cavalry units be given faster animations if possible. Currently all cavalry still run at the same speed so catching catas with even the lightest armed cavalry is basically impossible. :|
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  5. #5

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    Also I'm going to put forward a request to take scary off nakeds and catas and increase charge. I think the scary effect should only be reserved for chariots and elephants. The range of scary is just too large right now.
    If this is going to get implemented.....I don't think all chariots should be scary. They were incredibly outdated by EB timerange. Scythed chariots might be the exception....
    "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."

  6. #6
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Assaulting your flanks
    Posts
    1,475

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    All I can think is good luck playing Casse without scary chariots or nakeds. Druids only get you so far.
    From Frontline for fixing siege towers of death
    x30 From mikepettytw for showing how to edit in game text.
    From Brennus for wit.

  7. #7

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin View Post
    All I can think is good luck playing Casse without scary chariots or nakeds. Druids only get you so far.
    And good luck playing Saka split into 2 eras :P

    Sorry, couldn't resist :D
    "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."

  8. #8

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy O View Post
    Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....
    Enough of this mistake of imposing modern notions of West vs East, race, ethnicity and others on the past. Stick to the and the digs. Deal with the contemporary context, not the out-of-place.
    EB Online Founder | Website
    Former Projects:
    - Vartan's EB Submod Compilation Pack

    - Asia ton Barbaron (Armenian linguistics)
    - EB:NOM (Armenian linguistics/history)
    - Dominion of the Sword (Armenian linguistics/history, videographer)

  9. #9
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    So basically Cretans are like peltastai with a bow?
    I find that a funny comment, because Cretans actually fielded excellent Peltastai as well as Toxotai!

    It's likely that a large number of the "Greeks" you mention would either be of mixed race or ehtnically Scythians due to heavy Scythian settlement. Secondly, the access to the more powerful bows would be much, much greater as many Scythians lived in these Greek colonies and they were bordered by Steppe tribes. Lastly, they would really be forced to adopt the more effective bows and train archers to fend off raids by steppe tribes. So whilst Cretans trained for the sake of being mercinaries, these guys would need to train for the sake of defending against horse archers etc. In other words, their need for archery was more urgent; their access to superior bows greater.
    Essentially; the dominant elements of the Bosporan population would be largely composed of Greeks, Thracians, and wealthy Scythian colonists. Likely elements of all of these would be present in the archer units, and almost certainly intermarriage was common. Nonetheless, the Greek culture was by far the dominant one, as shown in the language used for day-to-day affairs. Militarily, however, the Scythian elements were extremely important. Not only were numerous Scythian allies used, but many of the wealthier Bosporan citizens equipped themselves as well-armored horse archers with bow, lance, sword, and scale armor. Sadly we don't have any such Bosporan Cavalry in EB. The foot archer in Greek-style armor and wielding a Scythian bow and typically a spear (not a long sword, which would mainly be a cavalry weapon) would also be a very important part of the army. In addition, the Bosporans' hoplites (mainly in the earlier part of the Hellenistic period), being quite wealthy in general, would often wear metal cuirasses of some sort; either muscled or scale, with scale-reinforced linothorax being probably the minimal amount of armor they'd wear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shak
    I kind of agree with this in the sense that I think a lot of eastern/steppe foot archers should have attack/range/accuracy at the highest level (equal to bosphorans); however thats not the same thing as saying they are the best archer unit (since bosphorans have heavy armor, they can resist arrow fire much better). This will also work in favor of Cretans.
    So, the proposition is that Bosporans should be first among equals, rather than in a class of their own? The danger I see in this is that this makes factions like Pontos easily win the missile duel without spending significantly more than their opponents on archery troops. Should I just implement this anyways and see how it works out?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shak
    On this topic, shouldn't toxotai syrakoi be a bit more powerful given that unit description says they are heavily armored (maybe they should be on same level as bosphorans?) and have better range/bow attack than they do right now(powerful large composite bows). Once again, dont know much about these guys- just going on unit description here. Though they would certainly have access to great armories and composite bows.
    The Toxotai Syriakoi are well armored, but recall that they aren't professionals, rather they are more of a 'pressed' unit, one fighting for a foreign master. They currently function as one of the more important archer units available to the Seleukids, Ptolemaioi, and Hayk so I don't really see a problem with them as of now. Their bows aren't really any better than those of the Persians.

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    I'm also going to request that lighter cavalry units be given faster animations if possible. Currently all cavalry still run at the same speed so catching catas with even the lightest armed cavalry is basically impossible. :|
    What are you talking about???
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  10. #10
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    The speeds of cavalry have always been a problem but it is especially problematic with scaraphracts. It doesn't matter what the cavalry is, it is basically impossible for 1 cavalry unit to catch another cavalry until unless the lighter cavalry is a very fast fresh unit.

    I think it would also be interesting if you made mercenaries generally slightly better and more expensive (they can afford to grow beards) than their normal counterparts. Mercenaries often had quite a bit more money and experience than the normal middle class guy who fights only when they need to.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  11. #11

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    I think it would also be interesting if you made mercenaries generally slightly better and more expensive (they can afford to grow beards) than their normal counterparts. Mercenaries often had quite a bit more money and experience than the normal middle class guy who fights only when they need to.
    Really guys?

    Why do you want to test out normalizing Bosporans gg2? Why don't you leave them in a class of their own? Makes it an interesting and unique investment if you ask me.
    EB Online Founder | Website
    Former Projects:
    - Vartan's EB Submod Compilation Pack

    - Asia ton Barbaron (Armenian linguistics)
    - EB:NOM (Armenian linguistics/history)
    - Dominion of the Sword (Armenian linguistics/history, videographer)

  12. #12

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Also I'm going to put forward a request to take scary off nakeds and catas and increase charge. I think the scary effect should only be reserved for chariots and elephants. The range of scary is just too large right now.
    ASM doesnt like scary, and wants as few units as possible to get scary becuase scary is the weakness of his faction rome. the weakness of rome is Scaries everyone knows that. The only reason that you give is "range of scary is too long" a player who doesnt use scaries would say this is bad. a player who does use scaries would consider this good.

  13. #13

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by -Stormrage- View Post
    ASM doesnt like scary, and wants as few units as possible to get scary becuase scary is the weakness of his faction rome. the weakness of rome is Scaries everyone knows that. The only reason that you give is "range of scary is too long" a player who doesnt use scaries would say this is bad. a player who does use scaries would consider this good.
    I'm in a rush so I cant respond to other posts, but storm, ASM's faction is not Rome. If you played as often as you complained, you'd see that :P
    "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."

  14. #14
    Unbowed Unbent Unbroken Member Lazy O's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Leave the Bosporans as they are, they already cost 2.1k and arrows do not scratch shielded infantry.

    And I think speeds have something to do with the unit model (iirc) so I do not think gg2 has the time to change all of them.
    Last edited by Lazy O; 10-07-2011 at 08:54.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    [21:16:17] [Gaius - 5.115.253.115]
    i m not camping , its elegant strategy of waiting

  15. #15

    Default Re: 3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    The speeds of cavalry have always been a problem but it is especially problematic with scaraphracts. It doesn't matter what the cavalry is, it is basically impossible for 1 cavalry unit to catch another cavalry until unless the lighter cavalry is a very fast fresh unit.
    I agree 100% . but i think its impossible making the animation faster. Ive talked to gg about this, I cant rememebr what he said.
    and there is another problem is that it takes time for cav to catch up to running infantry. Cav speed is just marginally faster

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO