[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[Arjos]

Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....

Much like the mercenaries reaching Pontos during the Anabasis, didn't see the people living in the colonies as "fully Greeks"; so it was in all the other areas so far from Hellas (due to political or geographical matters)...
It wasn't a black or white thing, it was all grey...

[gamegeek2]

I dont believe they were greeks, who says they were greeks? Isnt it much more probable that they were Scythians?

And what happened to your presentation?

Ah, now I understand why you don't like historical accuracy as a stat system's basis!

Anyways, I like the interpretation of Cretans' effectiveness put forward by Shak and Ludens. This would leave Bosporans and Elite Dacians as the only expensive foot archer units, assuming we reduced Cretans' accuracy and cost to tier 2 levels.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'm in favor of this as well, if only because so many factions can get Cretans, it makes it difficult to determine who will go archer heavy. Also making Cretans somewhat cheaper gives factions like Makedonia better missile options since it can be hard to build a decent army with them and not end up taking psioli units as your only missiles.

[antisocialmunky]

So basically Cretans are like peltastai with a bow?

[TheShakAttack]

So we wait and pray for gg2 to correct the Kretan monsters? Bahahah. Bosphorans remain the top dog then, eh? Those Greeks in the East must have learned quickly then!

It's likely that a large number of the "Greeks" you mention would either be of mixed race or ehtnically Scythians due to heavy Scythian settlement. Secondly, the access to the more powerful bows would be much, much greater as many Scythians lived in these Greek colonies and they were bordered by Steppe tribes. Lastly, they would really be forced to adopt the more effective bows and train archers to fend off raids by steppe tribes. So whilst Cretans trained for the sake of being mercinaries, these guys would need to train for the sake of defending against horse archers etc. In other words, their need for archery was more urgent; their access to superior bows greater.

Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....

I kind of agree with this in the sense that I think a lot of eastern/steppe foot archers should have attack/range/accuracy at the highest level (equal to bosphorans); however thats not the same thing as saying they are the best archer unit (since bosphorans have heavy armor, they can resist arrow fire much better). This will also work in favor of Cretans.

This would leave Bosporans and Elite Dacians as the only expensive foot archer units, assuming we reduced Cretans' accuracy and cost to tier 2 levels.

I don't think their nerfing should be limited to accuracy, it should also include bow range and attack (not a huge nerf, but significant enough). I also do not think their cost should be decreased too significantly, since they were mercs, and would be pretty expensive to hire (apart from KH factional units maybe). They were also in relatively low numbers. Basically, the same logic as applied to Baelaeric slingers should apply to them as well...low unit numbers, relative higher cost than factional units.

To balance it out historically, I'd say maybe take away cav fighting penalty and increase morale by 1 (they were after all crazy mofos...sorry for language, thought it was appropriate tho :) ).

To be honest, I am not sure why Dacian elites are so powerful, but since I know little of history there, I won't venture any opinions, though I would be happy if someone could point me to a source about them (Dacian archers) so I could learn more. I guess since they lived in such close proximity to Scythians, it is logical they needed to develop units similar to Bosphorans as anti HA units and foot archer units.

On this topic, shouldn't toxotai syrakoi be a bit more powerful given that unit description says they are heavily armored (maybe they should be on same level as bosphorans?) and have better range/bow attack than they do right now(powerful large composite bows). Once again, dont know much about these guys- just going on unit description here. Though they would certainly have access to great armories and composite bows.

So basically Cretans are like peltastai with a bow?

Kind of, except they used more expensive equipment (composite bow and arrows) and should be a medium-quality (in terms of archery) unit.

[antisocialmunky]

A 1600 missile unit would be pretty good. I think.

Also I'm going to put forward a request to take scary off nakeds and catas and increase charge. I think the scary effect should only be reserved for chariots and elephants. The range of scary is just too large right now.

I'm also going to request that lighter cavalry units be given faster animations if possible. Currently all cavalry still run at the same speed so catching catas with even the lightest armed cavalry is basically impossible. :|

[TheShakAttack]

Also I'm going to put forward a request to take scary off nakeds and catas and increase charge. I think the scary effect should only be reserved for chariots and elephants. The range of scary is just too large right now.

If this is going to get implemented.....I don't think all chariots should be scary. They were incredibly outdated by EB timerange. Scythed chariots might be the exception....

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

All I can think is good luck playing Casse without scary chariots or nakeds. Druids only get you so far.

[TheShakAttack]

All I can think is good luck playing Casse without scary chariots or nakeds. Druids only get you so far.

And good luck playing Saka split into 2 eras :P

Sorry, couldn't resist :D

[vartan]

Sure they colonized, but how do you know they were great enough archers that we justify their place as the best in the game? If it were scythians I would be fine with it but....

Enough of this mistake of imposing modern notions of West vs East, race, ethnicity and others on the past. Stick to the and the digs. Deal with the contemporary context, not the out-of-place.

[gamegeek2]

So basically Cretans are like peltastai with a bow?

I find that a funny comment, because Cretans actually fielded excellent Peltastai as well as Toxotai!

It's likely that a large number of the "Greeks" you mention would either be of mixed race or ehtnically Scythians due to heavy Scythian settlement. Secondly, the access to the more powerful bows would be much, much greater as many Scythians lived in these Greek colonies and they were bordered by Steppe tribes. Lastly, they would really be forced to adopt the more effective bows and train archers to fend off raids by steppe tribes. So whilst Cretans trained for the sake of being mercinaries, these guys would need to train for the sake of defending against horse archers etc. In other words, their need for archery was more urgent; their access to superior bows greater.

Essentially; the dominant elements of the Bosporan population would be largely composed of Greeks, Thracians, and wealthy Scythian colonists. Likely elements of all of these would be present in the archer units, and almost certainly intermarriage was common. Nonetheless, the Greek culture was by far the dominant one, as shown in the language used for day-to-day affairs. Militarily, however, the Scythian elements were extremely important. Not only were numerous Scythian allies used, but many of the wealthier Bosporan citizens equipped themselves as well-armored horse archers with bow, lance, sword, and scale armor. Sadly we don't have any such Bosporan Cavalry in EB. The foot archer in Greek-style armor and wielding a Scythian bow and typically a spear (not a long sword, which would mainly be a cavalry weapon) would also be a very important part of the army. In addition, the Bosporans' hoplites (mainly in the earlier part of the Hellenistic period), being quite wealthy in general, would often wear metal cuirasses of some sort; either muscled or scale, with scale-reinforced linothorax being probably the minimal amount of armor they'd wear.

I kind of agree with this in the sense that I think a lot of eastern/steppe foot archers should have attack/range/accuracy at the highest level (equal to bosphorans); however thats not the same thing as saying they are the best archer unit (since bosphorans have heavy armor, they can resist arrow fire much better). This will also work in favor of Cretans.

So, the proposition is that Bosporans should be first among equals, rather than in a class of their own? The danger I see in this is that this makes factions like Pontos easily win the missile duel without spending significantly more than their opponents on archery troops. Should I just implement this anyways and see how it works out?

On this topic, shouldn't toxotai syrakoi be a bit more powerful given that unit description says they are heavily armored (maybe they should be on same level as bosphorans?) and have better range/bow attack than they do right now(powerful large composite bows). Once again, dont know much about these guys- just going on unit description here. Though they would certainly have access to great armories and composite bows.

The Toxotai Syriakoi are well armored, but recall that they aren't professionals, rather they are more of a 'pressed' unit, one fighting for a foreign master. They currently function as one of the more important archer units available to the Seleukids, Ptolemaioi, and Hayk so I don't really see a problem with them as of now. Their bows aren't really any better than those of the Persians.

I'm also going to request that lighter cavalry units be given faster animations if possible. Currently all cavalry still run at the same speed so catching catas with even the lightest armed cavalry is basically impossible. :|

What are you talking about???

[antisocialmunky]

The speeds of cavalry have always been a problem but it is especially problematic with scaraphracts. It doesn't matter what the cavalry is, it is basically impossible for 1 cavalry unit to catch another cavalry until unless the lighter cavalry is a very fast fresh unit.

I think it would also be interesting if you made mercenaries generally slightly better and more expensive (they can afford to grow beards) than their normal counterparts. Mercenaries often had quite a bit more money and experience than the normal middle class guy who fights only when they need to.

[vartan]

I think it would also be interesting if you made mercenaries generally slightly better and more expensive (they can afford to grow beards) than their normal counterparts. Mercenaries often had quite a bit more money and experience than the normal middle class guy who fights only when they need to.

Really guys?

Why do you want to test out normalizing Bosporans gg2? Why don't you leave them in a class of their own? Makes it an interesting and unique investment if you ask me.

[-Stormrage-]

Also I'm going to put forward a request to take scary off nakeds and catas and increase charge. I think the scary effect should only be reserved for chariots and elephants. The range of scary is just too large right now.

ASM doesnt like scary, and wants as few units as possible to get scary becuase scary is the weakness of his faction rome. the weakness of rome is Scaries everyone knows that. The only reason that you give is "range of scary is too long" a player who doesnt use scaries would say this is bad. a player who does use scaries would consider this good.

[TheShakAttack]

ASM doesnt like scary, and wants as few units as possible to get scary becuase scary is the weakness of his faction rome. the weakness of rome is Scaries everyone knows that. The only reason that you give is "range of scary is too long" a player who doesnt use scaries would say this is bad. a player who does use scaries would consider this good.

I'm in a rush so I cant respond to other posts, but storm, ASM's faction is not Rome. If you played as often as you complained, you'd see that :P

[Lazy O]

Leave the Bosporans as they are, they already cost 2.1k and arrows do not scratch shielded infantry.

And I think speeds have something to do with the unit model (iirc) so I do not think gg2 has the time to change all of them.

[-Stormrage-]

The speeds of cavalry have always been a problem but it is especially problematic with scaraphracts. It doesn't matter what the cavalry is, it is basically impossible for 1 cavalry unit to catch another cavalry until unless the lighter cavalry is a very fast fresh unit.

I agree 100% . but i think its impossible making the animation faster. Ive talked to gg about this, I cant rememebr what he said.
and there is another problem is that it takes time for cav to catch up to running infantry. Cav speed is just marginally faster

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, I figured but it is completely annoying especially if they are sporting the scary ability since they just need to be near by to apply scary. They already do morale damage by just being behind your units.

[TheShakAttack]

Standing close with scaries is how most ppl use scary units. Though there might be something to say about the large radius it affects, I think this is quite justifiable. Plus, standing close but not engaging is how barb fear units are usually used (except Gaesatae). Fear is a very psychological thing, and the mere sight of things like eles and catas are likely to affect the average trooper.

Re: Bosphorans, I think lets try them out as they are. They are not particularly cheap (though an excellent bargain as they double as melee units). We can always tweak later if they turn out to make Pontos too OP.

Re: Persian bows- they should be just as powerful as steppe bows iirc. Certainly their proximity to steppe peoples, the fact that Persian warfare historically relied upon archery heavily, and that many Persian dynasties has steppe-ish origins would indicate so. Though this is merely conjecture, it would be like how the Romans adopted the Gladius, which was in its early form an iberian weapon. Romans liked sharp pointy things, saw that the gladius was excellent for packed troops to use in close combat and upgraded their own weapons to suit.

Am I wrong to think this re persian bows? Are there any sources on this to prove otherwise?

[Lazy O]

You are right.

From the top of my head if I put it rougly

Aryans=Persians=Scythians=Sarmatians=Iranians=Whatever

[vartan]

Wow. More of the same modern nonsense. This is getting more exciting as the days go on.

[TheShakAttack]

Wow. More of the same modern nonsense. This is getting more exciting as the days go on.

Are you referring to me or Lazy?

[antisocialmunky]

I just refer to Armenians as Vartans.

I'd also just like to point out that step archer size is still tiny...

[Kival]

Are you referring to me or Lazy?

Lazy. He's mixing up modern terms of nationality and ancient cultures. I also had some impulse to ask if he really wants to base his criteria for marksmanship on genetics after his last post.

[vartan]

Lazy. He's mixing up modern terms of nationality and ancient cultures. I also had some impulse to ask if he really wants to base his criteria for marksmanship on genetics after his last post.

I know it's free entertainment and all but it gets old after a while, hence my posts. Anyway, we await the perfect EDU I suppose.

[gamegeek2]

You are right.

From the top of my head if I put it rougly

Aryans=Persians=Scythians=Sarmatians=Iranians=Whatever

Well, technically the language of the first branched into that of the fifth, which branched into that of the second, third, and fourth.

Once again, it surprises me little that you dislike historical accuracy as a basis for balancing stats.

I have...erm, other work to do this weekend, so don't expect an EDU update till the second half of October rolls, or perhaps not until the end.

[Lazy O]

Lazy. He's mixing up modern terms of nationality and ancient cultures. I also had some impulse to ask if he really wants to base his criteria for marksmanship on genetics after his last post.

Hmm, I cant really say, but the general conception is that the Easterns trained with the bow since they were children, and hence, "should" be much better than anything else, Cretans included, note, I am not referring to bosporans, as I think they are fine as is, my only issue is with the machine gunning cretans which are somehow better than any eastern archer unit bar the Bosporans.

@GG2; What are you talking about? Since when did I say we should not be using history as a base for stats? Besides the cretans I have not even been talking about stats. Oh and, Indian Archers need a buff, they were a class of professional soldiers trained from birth to fight.

And the thing I posted before, It actually has no order, I just said that all of them are more or less the same people.

[vartan]

Hmm, I cant really say, but the general conception is that the Easterns trained with the bow since they were children, and hence, "should" be much better than anything else, Cretans included, note, I am not referring to bosporans, as I think they are fine as is, my only issue is with the machine gunning cretans which are somehow better than any eastern archer unit bar the Bosporans.

Right and Westerners trained with the Nintendo so they should be "much better" gamers?

Nice.

EDIT: Please don't post any claims about history if you don't have a respectable idea of what you will be posting. Thank you.

[Lazy O]

Tell Herodotus. Im not saying that :P


----

Come on hamachi, I know youre not doing anything right now.

[vartan]

Tell Herodotus. Im not saying that :P


----

Come on hamachi, I know youre not doing anything right now.

You do not need to know what I'm doing right now. Herodotus is problematic, to make a great understatement with regards to historiography. I'm not going to lecture you, this is an EDU-related thread.