[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[Lazy O]

Why? I like your overly philosophic lectures. Really

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Herodotus is a problem, but he is also one of the only glimpses we have into the non-Greek world before Xenophon shows up. I wouldn't believe all that much that he says as he is prone to exaggeration and is not a first hand observer much of the time, however there are likely grains of truth in just about everything he says, we just have to sift through and pick out the facts from the fiction.

We all know the line that Persians are taught three things from youth: to shoot a bow, to ride a horse, and to speak the truth. Well this probably applies only to the Persian nobility first off as most people would not own horses. As such, it is not necessarily true that the general levy (i.e. Persian Archers/Archer Spearmen) would be trained in using the bow any more than a western levy of Celtic Archers. Obviously there was a tradition of archery in Persia that did not exist in the West so bows were a more prevalent weapon in warfare, therefore the Persians come in larger sizes. Also, they had access to superior bows and therefore they have better range. However, it does not necessarily make them any more accurate with that weapon as individuals.

The Heavy Persian Archers may be a more professional fighting force though I am unsure of this and would defer to others. However, they are already represented as such in game so no problems there.

[Arjos]

Speaking of archers, why KH doesn't have the thureopherontes?

[Lazy O]

Why should they?

[Arjos]

You mean that an inland anatolian faction, who took 170+ years to get to the bosphorus, has more credit than the motherland of such colonies, who kept trading and friendship relations with them?

[Lazy O]

Do they own the bosporus at the game start? And I dont support Pontus having them either. All I know is, the greeks had them before, but they were removed.

[Arjos]

Own it no, but they had an alliance with Athens...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I still find it ironic that the KH, the most backwards in terms of military advancement faction in the game, ends up being the most cosmopolitan because one coalition of two greek cities has been expanded to include greek colonies all over the mediterranean.

[gamegeek2]

Own it no, but they had an alliance with Athens...

The colonies of the Bosporan kingdom were founded by Miletos (Pantikapaion), Herakleia Pontika (Chersonesos Taurike), and the fleeing citizens of Teos (Phanagoria) and by now they were part of an independent Hellenic kingdom anyways.

[TheShakAttack]

I still find it ironic that the KH, the most backwards in terms of military advancement faction in the game, ends up being the most cosmopolitan because one coalition of two greek cities has been expanded to include greek colonies all over the mediterranean.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[TheShakAttack]

Herodotus is a problem, but he is also one of the only glimpses we have into the non-Greek world before Xenophon shows up. I wouldn't believe all that much that he says as he is prone to exaggeration and is not a first hand observer much of the time, however there are likely grains of truth in just about everything he says, we just have to sift through and pick out the facts from the fiction.

We all know the line that Persians are taught three things from youth: to shoot a bow, to ride a horse, and to speak the truth. Well this probably applies only to the Persian nobility first off as most people would not own horses. As such, it is not necessarily true that the general levy (i.e. Persian Archers/Archer Spearmen) would be trained in using the bow any more than a western levy of Celtic Archers. Obviously there was a tradition of archery in Persia that did not exist in the West so bows were a more prevalent weapon in warfare, therefore the Persians come in larger sizes. Also, they had access to superior bows and therefore they have better range. However, it does not necessarily make them any more accurate with that weapon as individuals.

The Heavy Persian Archers may be a more professional fighting force though I am unsure of this and would defer to others. However, they are already represented as such in game so no problems there.

Sorry for double post. This is a very good post and I would agree with this with the exception of 1 point.

1) I think the levy persian archer accuracy should basically be a bit better than celtic levy archer accuracy. It's like how gaul and germania raises decent quality melee troops as levy. These melee levy troops, would not be able to beat the more expensive persian infantry (like babylonian spearmen), but, they provide decent stats for their cost compared to other factions.

Secondly, it was my understanding that stats were based on weapons used, and in the case of archers, this would attack and range. In this, I would imagine the persians levy unit would have good stats. I am not saying they do not already as I have not looked at them in any detail. I will do so and get back to you guys.

Lastly, I think this is a good point and is imp that it gets highlighted:

"The Heavy Persian Archers may be a more professional fighting force though I am unsure of this and would defer to others. However, they are already represented as such in game so no problems there"

I feel their bows are pretty sucky (range and attack).

[Arjos]

The colonies of the Bosporan kingdom were founded by Miletos (Pantikapaion), Herakleia Pontika (Chersonesos Taurike), and the fleeing citizens of Teos (Phanagoria) and by now they were part of an independent Hellenic kingdom anyways.

Weren't the Spartokidai very close with Athens?

[vartan]

Brave et al are prime examples of how pervasive and prevalent the Greco-Roman perversion of the east remains to this very day. How could one forget the great arduous work undertaken by historians and others in the past decades (and century) on native sources within the near east... Old Persian. Akkadian. Aramaic. Babylonian dialect Akkadian. And so much more. Josef Wiesehöfer does a good job of pointing this out in his Ancient Persia...

[gamegeek2]

Sorry for double post. This is a very good post and I would agree with this with the exception of 1 point.

1) I think the levy persian archer accuracy should basically be a bit better than celtic levy archer accuracy. It's like how gaul and germania raises decent quality melee troops as levy. These melee levy troops, would not be able to beat the more expensive persian infantry (like babylonian spearmen), but, they provide decent stats for their cost compared to other factions.

Secondly, it was my understanding that stats were based on weapons used, and in the case of archers, this would attack and range. In this, I would imagine the persians levy unit would have good stats. I am not saying they do not already as I have not looked at them in any detail. I will do so and get back to you guys.

Lastly, I think this is a good point and is imp that it gets highlighted:

"The Heavy Persian Archers may be a more professional fighting force though I am unsure of this and would defer to others. However, they are already represented as such in game so no problems there"

I feel their bows are pretty sucky (range and attack).

Stats are based on both the man and the weapons he wields. The Celtic archers are often drawn from hunters, whereas I believe the Persians are drawn from a more agrarian population. That's why the Celtic archers have better accuracy but worse bows and smaller numbers. While the Persians' numbers are typically exaggerated by Greek sources, the Iranian folks from which the "Persian Archers" of EB are drawn are from rather numerous nations. The Sassanid Empire at its greatest extent is estimated to have controlled more than 1/3 of the world's population; the Achaemenid, 20%.

Heavy Persians are quite good, the only modification I would consider for them is +5 ammo.

[TheShakAttack]

Why is the range lower for persian archers (archer spearmen, levies, and heavies) than steppe and dacian bows though?

[vartan]

Why is the range lower for persian archers (archer spearmen, levies, and heavies) than steppe and dacian bows though?

Lowest to highest range IMO would be Persian Archer-Spearmen, Persian Archers, and Persian Heavy Archers. Only the heavy archers would approach Dacio-steppe ranges. Sound about right?

[TheShakAttack]

Lowest to highest range IMO would be Persian Archer-Spearmen, Persian Archers, and Persian Heavy Archers. Only the heavy archers would approach Dacio-steppe ranges. Sound about right?

Sounds correct, but i meant what is the historical basis esp compared to Dacian bows. Persian composites were just as good afaik.

At a very cursory glance I found these links (they do not show much, nor am I relying on these solely):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perso-Parthian_bow

http://www.salukibow.com/28.html

[Tuuvi]

Just a quick note on the earlier link. Whilst it is incredibly interesting, the author of that post does not make his sources clear, nor which time period the bow he used refers to. I am generally reluctant to rely on such material.

Yea the main reason I posted the link was because it was interesting, I didn't expect it to show exactly what a Cretan bow would've looked like. The bowyer said he had a difficult time finding sources. As for the time period someone posting in reply mentioned the Mycenean era so I'm guessing that's when it's from.

Re: Persian bows- they should be just as powerful as steppe bows iirc. Certainly their proximity to steppe peoples, the fact that Persian warfare historically relied upon archery heavily, and that many Persian dynasties has steppe-ish origins would indicate so. Though this is merely conjecture, it would be like how the Romans adopted the Gladius, which was in its early form an iberian weapon. Romans liked sharp pointy things, saw that the gladius was excellent for packed troops to use in close combat and upgraded their own weapons to suit.

Am I wrong to think this re persian bows? Are there any sources on this to prove otherwise?

I know a little bit about archery mechanics and physics and I agree. The steppe peoples and the Persians both used recurved composite bows, so I see no reason why they would perform differently. Sure not all composite designs are created equal and some are better than others, but the difference in performance wouldn't be enough to change their effectiveness in combat, in my opinion. Plus performance can vary between bows of the same design, so when you get hundreds of composite bows massed together the difference evens out.

[vartan]

Sounds correct, but i meant what is the historical basis esp compared to Dacian bows. Persian composites were just as good afaik.

At a very cursory glance I found these links (they do not show much, nor am I relying on these solely):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perso-Parthian_bow

http://www.salukibow.com/28.html

Just as good as the Scythian ones, yes. Persians beat the Scythians during the 6th century BC. I don't think the discrepancy would be immense by the 3rd century. I don't know about Dacian archery. I wouldn't be surprised if it was influenced heavily by archery of the steppes...but definitely would question any purported superiority of the Dacian archery over the Persian, at least amongst the trained.

[gamegeek2]

As it is the Persians are statted with a cheaper, lower quality bow to represent the cheap bows that the lower level Persian archers sometimes used. The Dacians on the other hand use fully-blown steppe composite bows. I can definitely change this, and almost certainly will for the Heavy Persians.

[Lazy O]

Good. Now what about the Indian Longbows?

Hopefully this will give you an idea that these were not peasent levies running around naked but one of the most advanced military cultures of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7URD...ayer_embedded#!

@Shak; Makes nice music for slaughtering our enemies no?

We pushed back Alexander. I demand justice be done to Indian units.

[TheShakAttack]

Good. Now what about the Indian Longbows?

Hopefully this will give you an idea that these were not peasent levies running around naked but one of the most advanced military cultures of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7URD...ayer_embedded#!

@Shak; Makes nice music for slaughtering our enemies no?

We pushed back Alexander. I demand justice be done to Indian units.

Hahahaha. Ok first of all I want to clarify I do not think they deserve to be awesome units just bcoz someone descended from that region :P

Secondly, I will actually have to disagree with you about the armor. The indian levies (and I believe the unit depicts levies as opposed to the warrior caste, kryshtias), would more often than not wear a simple cotton shirt with (at most) a heavily padded shirt. Few could afford to wear decent armor or actually bothered to wear armor since they knew they would not be expected to get into heavy melee though they were pretty capable of melee considering they were levies (their swords were cool).

Thirdly, a movie/tv show made by Indians will obviously glorify Indian history with little notion of historical accuracy :P I do agree with you that they had one of the most advanced armies and weaponries of the time period though since this is reflected in many sources and esp under Maurayan Empire.

Lastly, in line with my previous posts, I agree that the longbow they used is still not powerful enough to reflect their actual power in history. They should be more powerful than even large composites, due to the size and construction of the longbow (it was not a selfbow i.e. just a piece of long bamboo), with a nerf to accuracy since these were anchored on the ground with the left foot and would likely have been less accurate. Arrian (Alexander's historian) wrote that arrows launched from these longbows were capable of punching through even the most powerful armor and shields. The second way to implement it would be to give them equal stats (and accuracy) to the highest tier if it is felt that giving them too high an attack will spoil gameplay.

EB2 unit description:

" These men a re armed with the weapon most closely associated with the ancient Indian warrior: the longbow. The longbows would have been made of either bamboo or wood, and it would have been drawn in a particular fashion, described by ancient authors...In addition to the bows, these warriors also carry a broadsword. According to Arrianos, the broadsword and the bow were the weapons of choice of Indian warriors, and the sword was used in a slashing fashion. There were several different types of swords, some of native Indian design, but through foreign influence, other types, such as the Hellenic kopis made their way into the hands of Indian warriors...Most of the warriors are dressed in their everyday clothing, which includes loincloths, skirts, and short-sleeved shirts. The majority would have fought bare-chested, however. Some of the warriors wear a simple type of armour corselet, made from strips of hardened leather and tied at the back by what is in the epics referred to as a corselet strap...These archers can use their bows with great efficiency, and though they may not have the best aim, the power and range of their weapons more than make up for this. Though their broadswords make them more capable in mêlée than most archers, they are primarily ranged warriors, and may break if facing better trained warriors in hand-to-hand combat."

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=466774

Arrian on Indian longbows:

Indian war equipment differs; the infantry have a bow, of the height of the owner; this they poise on the ground, and set their left foot against it, and shoot thus; drawing the bowstring a very long way back; for their arrows are little short of three cubits, and nothing can stand against an arrow shot by an Indian archer, neither shield nor breastplate nor any strong armour. In their left hands they carry small shields of untanned hide, narrower than their bearers, but not much shorter. Some have javelins in place of bows. All carry a broad scimitar, its length not under three cubits; and this, when they have a hand-to-hand fight -- and Indians do not readily fight so among themselves -- they bring down with both hands in smiting, so that the stroke may be an effective one.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancie...VIII-India.asp

The quote indicates they should get shields too, but since the unit model doesnt have any, i will not push for this.

[Arjos]

Weren't the Spartokidai very close with Athens?

To add:

The inscription from the Acropolis in honour of Spartocus III (B.C. 287/6), speaks of such statues set up to his ancestors in the Agora and in the Emporium and of an offensive and defensive alliance concluded with them

So after Athens broke free from Polioerketes, Spartokos III renewed the symmachia with the polis (this friendship having a very long history going back to Spartokos I), because Athens allowed the Bosphorans to take part at the Panathenaic games and helped his dynasty to seize supremacy in the past...
Deal which gave recognition to the thracian dynast, legitimizing him as a greek monarch; while for Athens it meant cheaper grain and help in possible future expeditions...

Imo there's ground to give some Skuda units to the KH, I agree that they get quite cosmopolitan, but that's what the KH is about: a conglomerate of military alliances, in typical greek fashion, coming and going with the flow :D

[Lazy O]

@Shak; The Indian Guild warriors are not levies. And yes the rest of the post was a joke

[TheShakAttack]

Following on what Lazy said, proof in Indian longbow accuracy


Check out from 1.51 for about a min for pure awesomeness :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcTt...eature=related

Apparently they had gunpowder in their arrows.
And their bows were so powerful, they could cause hurricanes and even hurl pieces of furniture.

[The Celtic Viking]

Hahaha! It's just too bad that fire arrows are banned.

[gamegeek2]

We pushed back Alexander. I demand justice be done to Indian units.

Well then, please wait for EBNOM where you will be playing with these indians:



Indian Officer



Indian Macemen



Indian Light Spearmen

Better yet, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq3TH7ds6ZM

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Wow what a display of accuracy. And those arrows with multiplying heads were awesome! Where can I pick up some of those?

And we complain about Hollywood historical inaccuracies lol

[TheShakAttack]

Wow what a display of accuracy. And those arrows with multiplying heads were awesome! Where can I pick up some of those?

And we complain about Hollywood historical inaccuracies lol

Haha, I know. In fairness tho it is depicting a religious epic, so it's kind of like clash of Clash of the Titans.

[Lazy O]

Aside from a the usual innacuracy here and there I do not see anything that makes it BS ala 300 Spartans