Can't train gunpowder units

[cpgray]

In the campaign I just played I got to 1260 and could build Gunsmith Workshops and Bell Foundries, but they didn't allow me to train Handgunners or Bombards. Am I missing something? I can't find anything about other prerequisites. (I was playing the English, if that makes a difference.)

[drone]

In MTW/VI 2.01, the prerequisite order is Gunpowder Event + Castle -> Gunsmiths Workshop -> Hangunners for all factions, and Gunpowder Event + Castle -> Bell Foundry -> Bombards for Catholic and Orthodox factions. Not sure why you would be having a problem, so I'll ask the obvious questions: what version of the game do you have, and have you modded the game or are running a mod?

[cpgray]

Hi, drone,

I'm using MTW patched to 1.1 with no mods. It lets me build the Gunsmith Workshop and the Bell Foundry but the Handgunners and Bombard never appear in the unit training window.

[Gilrandir]

What do you need those beggars for? They are pathetic. No casualties inflicted worth to speak of. The only way I construct the buildings neccessary to train them is to get better ships (equipped with guns). But I myself doubt the expedience of this. Firstly, I'm not sure it matters much in sea battles (no one knows the mechanics of them). Secondly, by the time I can produce such ships my domination at sea is impregnable.

[cpgray]

Well, Gilrandir,

I take your point, but I'm not getting the opportunity to experience these units for myself and I'm left wondering if my game is broken this way maybe it's not the only way it's broken.

Besides, in searching to make sure there wasn't some other prerequisite I was missing I read some posts on how to use those units effectively, especially to demoralize the enemy.

[drone]

No VI expansion then. It will be hard for me to dig up the original unit_prod file, I can't remember if it was named the same. At the top level of your MTW installation, there should be a file called "CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT" (or something similar), that you can open in Notepad. Can you post the whole line starting with "HandGun" from your unit prod here? I don't think I ever played MTW without VI, I found out about the game after the expansion, and never played the straight orig. My tech tree poster says you should be able to recruit them though. Maybe there is another restriction they removed when they released the expansion.

[cpgray]

Thanks, drone,

That tip leads to the solution of the mystery.

I just imported crusaders_unit_prod11.txt as a tab delimited file into a spreadsheet (in OpenOffice) and there are all the details in glorious black and white. It turns out that in vanilla MTW (without VI) both the units I asked about are only available in the LATE period.

It's weird that the gunpowder event unlocks the buildings but not the units. At least I'll be right there when Santa comes down the chimney.

[Gilrandir]

Well, Gilrandir,

I take your point, but I'm not getting the opportunity to experience these units for myself and I'm left wondering if my game is broken this way maybe it's not the only way it's broken.

Besides, in searching to make sure there wasn't some other prerequisite I was missing I read some posts on how to use those units effectively, especially to demoralize the enemy.

Well, nothing was farther from my intentions than to impose my views upon you. I just express my own opinion on gunpowder units. In my view, the range they operate from and casualties inflicted make them inferior to other range units. As I figured out for myself, two arbalester units before the wall of spears and two archer units (preferably longbows)behind it (and possibly one or two units of horse archers) are all I need for a defensive battle. When I attack, I don't use range units much, so their proportion in the army is less (although more horse archers are welcome in this case).
But anyway I guess that you should figure out what is best for you and then stick to it.

[cpgray]

Well, nothing was farther from my intentions than to impose my views upon you.

I didn't feel your were imposing your views on me. I will probably try your advice at some point. I was just trying to say that I was already aware that there are severe limitations to the units, but that I was interested in trying them.

I'm new to these forums and so far I've been very impressed at how generous the atmosphere is here.

[drone]

I just imported crusaders_unit_prod11.txt as a tab delimited file into a spreadsheet (in OpenOffice) and there are all the details in glorious black and white. It turns out that in vanilla MTW (without VI) both the units I asked about are only available in the LATE period.

It's weird that the gunpowder event unlocks the buildings but not the units. At least I'll be right there when Santa comes down the chimney.

Just to verify, there are 2 columns that can limit a unit to periods. The first in the line (I think is about 1/3rd from the front) is the recruitment era limiter. The second, near the end, restricts when the unit becomes available as mercs. With v2.01 (VI) the first is "HIGH, LATE", the second is "LATE".

[cpgray]

Just to verify, there are 2 columns that can limit a unit to periods. The first in the line (I think is about 1/3rd from the front) is the recruitment era limiter. The second, near the end, restricts when the unit becomes available as mercs. With v2.01 (VI) the first is "HIGH, LATE", the second is "LATE".

This must be a difference between MTW with and without VI. The field for mercenaries is at the end but is just a YES or NO (with NO as the default).

[Gilrandir]

Naptha is a unit similar to the gunpowder ones in range and moral penalties which it inflicts(though someone may correct me in this) , but much more efficient in terms of casualties it causes. Moreover, you may deploy it behind your troop line thus keeping it from attack and riot.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Naptha is a unit similar to the gunpowder ones in range and moral penalties which it inflicts(though someone may correct me in this) , but much more efficient in terms of casualties it causes. Moreover, you may deploy it behind your troop line thus keeping it from attack and riot.

Hi

Don't have much experience using naptha grenadiers, but arquebusiers are surely one of the most dramatic death dealers in MTW.

Towards the end game, when I'm typically stomping around the map with upgraded super warriors defeating all comers, I'll almost always have a couple of arqs as my skirmish line. The flash and thunder of their volleys, followed by billowing smoke, is to my mind the most cinematic effect in MTW. And then they perform their little choreographed rank changing drill and reload. It's pure theatre.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Gilrandir]

I agree that it is picturesque, but no more. If we talk efficiency Naptha is way better. I will not instruct you on using it (you can get information from the Unit guide), I will just advise you to increase their valor (thus their accuracy) and look out for some tricks from the AI. The latter is prone to provide some nasty weather when it spots me having naptha in my army thus rendering it useless. But perhaps you will fall out with the AI and it will not do this to you.

[Trapped in Samsara]

...I will just advise you to increase their valor (thus their accuracy)....

Hi

I'm not sure that 'valouring up' missile units increases their accuracy.

I have a reasonably clear recollection of a long thread in which the effect of valour on archers was discussed in great depth by a number of MTW gurus. The conclusion was, IIRC, that there was little or no evidence that increasing the valour of archers made their volleys significantly more deadly.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[drone]

I thought valour did improve accuracy, but only real valour, not the general's bonus. And it wasn't until valour 3+ that it became noticeable.

[cpgray]

-Gunpowder units, pikes, Lithuanian cavalry, Demi cannon, serpentine, siege cannon, Demi culverin, culverin, gendarmes, lancers, Janissary heavy infantry, Ottoman Sipahi and Sipahi of the Porte become available at 1321.

Found this reading frogbeastegg's beginner's guide last night in section 2.3 Armies and Units.

[Gilrandir]

Found this reading frogbeastegg's beginner's guide last night in section 2.3 Armies and Units.

The Guide is wrong. You can train Janissary heavy infantry beginning from the High. I did it myself several times and pretty sure of it as my Turkish campaigns never took me to the Late (no heirs apparent).
As for the correlation of accuracy and valor, my advise was based on the Guide. So perhaps it is not perfect in that respect either.