Crusade Pathfinding

[Cyprian2]

Well, I'm sure this is covered somewhere, but I haven't had a chance to wade through all the archives to find it. Why is crusade pathfinding so screwy for the player? That is, you're forced to follow a predetermined path (often not the one you would have chosen), while the AI seems able to go wherever it wants, often moving up and down the stratmap with no apparent logic. So, is it possible to self-determine the path my crusades will follow, or must I always be forced to follow the whims of the engine?

[drone]

I've been curious about this as well. AI crusades tend to take the scenic route, usually through your lands, on their way to the Levant. It's really noticeable when you play the Danes, the French and English crusades veer pretty far north for an army that should be acclimatizing itself for hot, dry weather. I've always assumed it was just part of the game to annoy the human player.

[white lancer]

I recently launched two Crusades in my English campaign (one to Egypt, one to Sinai). I have ships in every sea zone while the Egyptians have no ships at all, and I was allied with everyone else, so I took the first one straight to Egypt. I was able to take the second one on a detour through Spain despite the fact that I could have easily gone straight to Sinai; I went to Valencia, Cordoba, and then back to Castile so I could use my own ships without passing through Almohad North Africa. Seems like a pretty odd journey, but I don't believe it would have allowed me to go to Portugal or Leon from Cordoba--I guess they wouldn't have helped me to get any closer? I haven't really observed any AI crusades doing anything weirder than that one, though. Maybe I just haven't played enough.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

Also, AI crusades, I have found to my cost, are able to teleport across sea zones - not the type traversed by a 'landbridge'. (So maybe that should be 'walk on water'.)

Very annoying when you have ships in the sea zones in question, are already at war with the crusade's sponsor who does not have any fleets, and have been excommed for having denied passage through one of your provinces elsewhere on the coast.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Gilrandir]

Hi

Also, AI crusades, I have found to my cost, are able to teleport across sea zones - not the type traversed by a 'landbridge'. (So maybe that should be 'walk on water'.)

Very annoying when you have ships in the sea zones in question, are already at war with the crusade's sponsor who does not have any fleets, and have been excommed for having denied passage through one of your provinces elsewhere on the coast.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

It is still more annoying when you let it through and the crusade sucks in the best of your troops, uses your fleet chain to get to the destination and is proud to announce urbi et orbi that it was the protector of Christian faith and promoter of it to the lands of infidels (and gets influence, piety and what not, very probably).

[drone]

It is still more annoying when you let it through and the crusade sucks in the best of your troops, uses your fleet chain to get to the destination and is proud to announce urbi at orbi that it was the protector of Christian faith and promoter of it to the lands of infidels (and gets influence, piety and what not, very probably).

Great risk, great reward.

Again, when playing as the Danes, I usually reject crusades through my lands. I can usually fight them off, and being excommed tends to be the natural state in most of my games anyway. The best part is when you beat back the crusade, then use your superior navy to invade the province with the Chapterhouse, burn it to the ground, and sit back to watch the resulting civil war with glee.

Come to think of it, I wonder if it's my superior navy that attracts the crusades in the first place. The Baltic Sea->Lithuania->Kiev->Black Sea/Khazar. I'll have to pop up the map and count the steps...

[white lancer]

Can Crusades use other factions' ships to get to its destination? The Spanish didn't have a fleet when I waltzed through their territories, but even though I did I wasn't able to use my own fleet to get to my destination (and yes, the Spanish did have ports).

[Gilrandir]

Can Crusades use other factions' ships to get to its destination? The Spanish didn't have a fleet when I waltzed through their territories, but even though I did I wasn't able to use my own fleet to get to my destination (and yes, the Spanish did have ports).

The same question was in my mind too, white lancer!!
I remember a crusade which I let through my territory. After zigzagging a bit across my lands it reached a coastal province of mine and got transported to the destination. But I don't recall whether I had a chain of ships to Outremer or there were other factions' fleets on the way there.
The historic logics (mixed with my beliefs about medieval crusades) tells me that any fellow catholics are to be relied upon in assistance in that matter, i.e. they would allow you to use their fleets.
But logics of the game tells me that in letting the crusade through your lands it got your acquiescence to use only YOUR lands, ports and ships at their discretion.
Which logics is at work here? Drone, help us!

[drone]

You are asking the wrong person here. I rarely crusade, most of my experience with crusades is with thwarting them. My best guess is that they can use your ports/ships once you have given permission, but I cannot verify that.

[Haccapelite]

Ahoy guys, long time no post!

This conversation caught my eye, since one of the last games of MTW I played before taking a break (damn Civ IV, so addictive) was with the French in XL, and I specifically decided to try to complete the crusade-related GA's (krak des chevaliers etc, I can't remember them all from the top of my head) and did actually manage to launch some succesful crusades. Before that I wasn't too well informed about the aspects of crusading but I learned something from that game plus the related topics on the .org at that time.

The first thing to remember is that the game treats human player and computer crusades differently: Human controlled crusades must always use the shortest possible route to the destination province, eg. the route that will take the least amount of turns. On the contrary, computer controlled crusades have the freedom of choosing their own route, which sometimes leads to them taking special interest in your high-garrisoned provinces, sucking up those valuable chivalric foot knights you've been stacking up to swipe the damnable germans off the face of the earth. (no personal experience related...)

As for crusades crossing water regions and using other factions' ships, the observations made here are correct. Once a crusade is given permission to pass through a players lands, it can use its ports and ships, but it can also use any possible link of ships that can be used to transport the crusade across the sea. If you for example are playing as the Italians, and you allow a German crusade to pass through your lands to Venice, and there is a link of French ships leading straight from Venice to say, Tripoli, the crusade can use those ships as long as it's not in war with the French.

Personally I found amphibiously conducted crusades to be most effective: first I made sure I had a chain of ships from the starting province to the destination, (or as close as I could get) then I simply created the crusade, dropped my pre-arranged crusader army to the crusade and slammed the lot in the middle of the holy land to cause as much turmoil as possible. While not maybe the most sportsmanlike maneuver, it did really save me some grey hair from battling with the limited route options, and i actually got a pretty intact army all the way to the destination. (And once my line of ships was cut off shortly afterwards, my little crusade army really got to see some serious action too...)

PS. Good to be back again, it's nice to see the community still active! I have been playing MTW occasionally lately, had some fun with the Warlords-mod, and also gave a go at Redux (pretty damn great btw, really loved the balance it offers) and I have a rather interesting campaing going as the Picts in Viking Invasion atm.

[Gilrandir]

On the contrary, computer controlled crusades have the freedom of choosing their own route, which sometimes leads to them taking special interest in your high-garrisoned provinces, sucking up those valuable chivalric foot knights you've been stacking up to swipe the damnable germans off the face of the earth. (no personal experience related...)

Comment 1.
Chivalric foot knights? Hmmm... You mean to say that you have them unhorsed in your army? Or is it the mod that allows you to have footknights and knights as two separate units available in the game?
Comment 2.
Germans? I have no grudge against them. In spite of having the largest territory from the outset it is one of the weakest factions which usually succumbs after a defeat or two and relinquishes provinces one by one without putting up a fight. I'm going to play HRE some day on expert to see if a human player can ignite some fire in the complacent Germans.

[drone]

Welcome back, Haccapelite.

Your description of AI crusades pretty much matches with what I have observed. And it would not surprise me at all if the AI crusade pathfinding was hardcoded to traipse through the player's lands on it's way to the target, for added difficulty.

[Haccapelite]

@Gilrandir: Yeah, IIRC I was playing XL mod at that time, and that mod allows CFK to be trained separately. And as for the Holy Roman Empire, they really do struggle quite a lot in the hands of the AI, mainly thanks to the fact that they have so many neighbor countries that start picking off the bordering provinces because HRE's economy simply can't afford to defend every key province in the early game. I've tried them a couple of times, once in XL and once in Redux, and fared pretty well both times, although the XL-campaing did come to an end when the game had boiled down into a final show-down between me and the hugely bloated Byzantine empire.

A pretty nifty way of dealing with the difficulty of defending all your bordering provinces is to locate provinces that are connected to as many of your bordering provinces as possible (can't drop any names here, sorry, it's been a while since I played the regular campaing) and gather a well-rounded army to that province. This way you can leave the other provinces with small garrisons and simply counter-invade them with your bigger defensive army if/when someone tries to conquer your lands. This ofcourse requires you to build atleast a fort in the less defended provinces to allow your forces to retreat to the castle instead of abandoning the entire province. This saves you time and money, and you can focus on improving your infrastructure before starting to pick your neighbors up one at a time with those nice german special units. (Swabian swordsmen kick arse!) A somewhat cheap trick to boost your economy with Germany is to exploit saxony and its salt resource: Saxony is the only coastal province that has salt as a trade resource (Redux fixes this exploit, IIRC), and with a reasonably sized trade fleet you can make saxony pump some serious cash to your money chest. (I've had somewhere around 3000-4000 income in Saxony in the games where i controlled the province.)

Cheers, drone! Yeah, that would actually make sense I think. That really makes those events that raise the zeal in your lands a nuisance, but ofcourse you can always deny the crusades access to your lands. It also sometimes seems as if the crusade actually aimed straight at your biggest army, eg. when you're planning on invading a neighbor and your troops are ready and BLAM out of nowhere a random crusade appears.. This goes pretty well with the assumption of some hard-coded features with AI crusades.

PS. Goddamnit, all this MTW talk is making me want to crush my enemies and hear the lamentations of their women again, I guess it's bye-bye for any schoolwork for the rest of the evening!

[Gilrandir]

This saves you time and money, and you can focus on improving your infrastructure before starting to pick your neighbors up one at a time with those nice german special units. (Swabian swordsmen kick arse!)

I played HRE couple of times but at lower than expert difficulties and fared pretty well, but somehow I didn't come by Swabians. In the very first game I simply didn't know that such a unit exists. In the next game I didn't build the corresponding province up to the level allowing the production of them (as you know they are available only in early). So, by now I don't have any experience of using them in battle, but I heard MTW community lamenting their high cost and brief availability which both make them inadequate.

[oz_wwjd]

I found it even more irritating when I let the crusade go through my lands as the Byzantines and they pillaged 1500 florins from me twice,as I had earmarked that money for army building when my building's finished,next turn.After that all Crusades are required to battle my armies for admittance,if they survive I might let them through..

[Trapped in Samsara]

...when I let the crusade go through my lands as the Byzantines and they pillaged 1500 florins from me twice...

Huh?! Don't understand. Are you perhaps talking about MTWII? Admittedly, I very rarely allow crusades through my lands, but it's completely passed me by if crusades can hoover florins as well as troops in MTW.

V

[drone]

Crusades will not take troops unless the faction is catholic. Instead it will pillage the land and take your bank account.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Crusades will not take troops unless the faction is catholic. Instead it will pillage the land and take your bank account.

Wow! Nearly a decade of playing this fantastic game and I've never encountered (or at least spotted) this. I'm genuinely looking forward to being 'crusaded through' as a non-Catholic faction just so I can experience this first hand.

What an historically accurate feature, too.

Thanks oz_wwjd and drone for enlightening me.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Gilrandir]

This story of the treasury burglarized by the vagabond crusade defies common sense. If you let the crusade into your province it is entitled to do whatever it wants with the buildings, people and armies in the PROVINCE. Your treasury does NOT belong to the province, it is the property of the whole faction so the crusade can not get hold of it. Of course, one may suppose that your treasury is kept in this province. Then it is sure to be stored within the principal stronghold of the province. And that is kept intact during the sojourn of the crusade in your province: the crusade is situated "afield" (remember, you have your own flag flying from the topmost tower of the provincial capital).
So I would call it a blunder on the part of the game desiners.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

It's just a game, Gilandir.

The objective of this particular feature is to make you 'suffer' due to the depredations of an AI crusade marching through your lands, so CA implemented "treasury burglarization". (Good expression, by the way.) It might be a bit 'quick and dirty'. There might be 'better' ways of representing the looting, etc. But provided you take a hit and feel a bit violated it achieves the right outcome, no?

You might find it interesting to read up on the Fourth Crusade, by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Gilrandir]

Hi Victor!
I realize that it is only a game and the purpose the game creators had in view (suffering penalty for your kindness which amounted to letting a crusade through your lands). But somehow, people at this forum (me included) take it too seriously. (I like the statement which one person - don't remember his name - said about football: Some people say that football is a life-or-death issue. They are wrong, it is much more serious.) People are prone to consider MTW as a replica of what was really going on in Europe at those times. So am I. I have tried to express this attitude in the thread "what's in thy name?" I guess MTW fans will always look for as much historic accuracy and common sense in the game as possible.
As for the link, I thank you. But recently I have acuired a three-volume "History of the Crusades" by Steve Runciman and now I'm waiting for it to be shipped to me. I expect to find their exhausive information on the topic.
P.S. On a second thought, a better way of rendering the tribulations you suffer from a passing crusade might be by confiscating the year's income the province provides or reducing some buildings one level down (or to ashes).
And speaking of them monies, does anyone know who gets the impounded cash? The faction that sent the crusade? If yes, then I may consider sending a couple of crusades on a tour around Europe with gigs at major capitals.

[Trapped in Samsara]

I like the statement which one person - don't remember his name - said about football: Some people say that football is a life-or-death issue. They are wrong, it is much more serious.

Hi Gilandir

“They say Football's a matter of life and death - but it's more important than that”

Bill Shankly, Liverpool FC manager, 1959 to 1974.
You'll never walk alone.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[oz_wwjd]

Still I'd to see one of these Crusages attempting to lay siege to my fully-upgraded fortress in Constaninople. The resulting fight would be truly epic but destructive to their army.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Still I'd to see one of these Crusages attempting to lay siege to my fully-upgraded fortress in Constaninople. The resulting fight would be truly epic but destructive to their army.

Actually, I've seen very few siege assaults repelled. I can only recall achieving this as the defender a handful of times, myself.

I normally starve fortifications into submission. But even a level five (fortress?) fortification's walls are easily cracked by, say, a four-gun BFG culverin battery. The question then becomes: how quickly will the defenders become exhausted as they defend the breaches.

V

[Gilrandir]

Still I'd to see one of these Crusages attempting to lay siege to my fully-upgraded fortress in Constaninople. The resulting fight would be truly epic but destructive to their army.

This post provoked a question:
If you deny a crusade's passage, then are offered a battle, and choose to retreat into your fortress. Will the crusaders storm it or try to starve it out or simply move on to their destination? Did any one have such an experience?

[Trapped in Samsara]

Will the crusaders storm it or try to starve it out or simply move on to their destination? Did any one have such an experience?

I think the crusade will move into the province (obviously) and then depart the following year towards the destination province. In other words, I understand a crusade will fight to enter a province, but will only seek to conquer its target.

By the way Gilandir, I had another 'favourable' loyalist revolt occurance this weekend. Me Almos, getting complacent. The Turks have a substantial empire, but are facing many threats on many fronts. My ruler dies, next turn I decide to do some title swapping. Result: I only have a one-star general in Sinai when the Turks invade. Three 3k battles so far. Good fights all of them. But the Turks also destroy my fleet in the Cyprus sea zone and invade next turn. I give battle to slim down my garrison and then withdraw to the castle. The Turks siege but don't assault. Next turn a loyalist revolts presents me with 200 good quality troops. My garrison sallies, links up with the loyalist rebels and the Turks are toast.

I love this game.

V

[Gilrandir]

Perhaps, you are just lucky to have loyalist revolt in your favor. Or it is the difficulty that allowed it (you play on hard, right?) On expert I never had it the way you do.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Perhaps, you are just lucky to have loyalist revolt in your favor. Or it is the difficulty that allowed it (you play on hard, right?) On expert I never had it the way you do.

Perhaps it's because my subjects love me?

V

[Gilrandir]

Don't let this thought carry you away. If you do you may become too mellow and relaxed. Then one day you will find yourself in a whirlwind of rebellions. You must keep an eye on 'em anyway otherwise you'll be in for all kinds of trouble, oh truly magnificent one.
P.S. One of the ways to stay alert is to pay close attention to the spelling of my "name" - it is GilRandir. It's Elvish: "gil" means "star", "randir" means "wanderer, pilgrim".

[Trapped in Samsara]

P.S. One of the ways to stay alert is to pay close attention to the spelling of my "name" - it is GilRandir. It's Elvish: "gil" means "star", "randir" means "wanderer, pilgrim".

You have elves in the Ukraine?

V