Why what was good for Kosovo is not for Palestine?

[Brenus]

Or, why the USA veto on Palestine's possible declaration of Independence, which will be not illegal, as yet decided by UN again about Kosovo?
Is the right for self determination only reserved for lands where USA want to put Military Forts?

[Ronin]

how cute....you are confusing "we love liberty rah rah" political discourse rhetoric with actual political policy.

as to your 2nd questions, short answer yes, and also depending if the "liberation" of said people will take territory away from an ally of us or not.

[PanzerJaeger]

Maybe because the faction vying for independence doesn't actually control all of Palestine. One would think that would be a precondition...

[drone]

Because Israel has better lobbying than Serbia.

[Fisherking]

Just remember that Kosovo came up when Bill Clinton was looking for a way to define his legacy.

It didn’t make sense then and it still doesn’t but he thought it might serve his political ambitions.

Some one else is in office now.

[gaelic cowboy]

Just remember that Kosovo came up when Bill Clinton was looking for a way to define his legacy.

It didn’t make sense then and it still doesn’t but he thought it might serve his political ambitions.

Some one else is in office now.

Clinton was long out of office before Kosovo was recognised, so we can all blame Bush for that one (thats if yer against it)

[Subotan]

This is a massive oversimplification of United States foreign policy. Come back and try again with a thread that doesn't seek to apply an algorithm to international relations.

[Brenus]

@ Panzer: The Government of Kosovo is not controlling all the Kosovo’s territory. The North is still a Serbian Strong Hold and it didn’t stop the majority of the EU countries and the US to decide it could be independent…

“how cute”: Thanks. I am confusing nothing.

“Because Israel has better lobbying than Serbia” Surely but that is not the problem. It may happen that it will be an Independence recognised by China and Russia with a Veto from USA. So, the answer to US for Kosovo…
Clinton was responsible for the NATO attack on Serbia, but the independence was granted by G.W Bush. On this point, the US policy is constant.

“This is a massive oversimplification of United States foreign policy. Come back and try again with a thread that doesn't seek to apply an algorithm to international relations.” Is it? Oh, Me who thought that we were fighting for Democracy and Freedom… Why do you hate Freedom?

But still the (hypocritical) question is why The Palestinian people can't have a State and the Albanian from Kosovo can? It is even more simple as this time it was the Israelis who carve their territory in Palestinian lands whereas the Albanian of Kosovo carved their territory in Serbian Land (in term of previously Internationally Recognised Borders). In theory it should be easier...

The other question is why to oppose it?

I can understand why Serbia is opposed to loose part of it territory, I can understand why Russia, Spain, China and others countries opposed Kosovo Independence, but why to oppose Palestine's independence?

[Papewaio]

It is a mix of the following in no particular order:

Real Politik
Ally vs a territory who had some of the worst hijackers in history until a decade ago.
Lesson learnt in Kosovo
2 other wars so a Kosovo II wouldn't be on the table
Voter base. Enough voters that believe in a literal interpretation of the book of revelations to swing voting.
Trying to minimize spending (which may actually hurt both Palestine and Israel)
Different legacy
Let social media do the work.

[Louis VI the Fat]

@ Panzer: The Government of Kosovo is not controlling all the Kosovo’s territory. The North is still a Serbian Strong Hold and it didn’t stop the majority of the EU countries and the US to decide it could be independent…

“how cute”: Thanks. I am confusing nothing.

“Because Israel has better lobbying than Serbia” Surely but that is not the problem. It may happen that it will be an Independence recognised by China and Russia with a Veto from USA. So, the answer to US for Kosovo…
Clinton was responsible for the NATO attack on Serbia, but the independence was granted by G.W Bush. On this point, the US policy is constant.

“This is a massive oversimplification of United States foreign policy. Come back and try again with a thread that doesn't seek to apply an algorithm to international relations.” Is it? Oh, Me who thought that we were fighting for Democracy and Freedom… Why do you hate Freedom?

But still the (hypocritical) question is why The Palestinian people can't have a State and the Albanian from Kosovo can? It is even more simple as this time it was the Israelis who carve their territory in Palestinian lands whereas the Albanian of Kosovo carved their territory in Serbian Land (in term of previously Internationally Recognised Borders). In theory it should be easier...

The other question is why to oppose it?

I can understand why Serbia is opposed to loose part of it territory, I can understand why Russia, Spain, China and others countries opposed Kosovo Independence, but why to oppose Palestine's independence?

Ronin was being a bit facetious. His 'you are confusing' meant that you were not confused about it.
(Gah! I seem to be start all my posts lately with 'what was meant by that is')

As for why Kosovo and not Palestine...for much the same reason as 'why South Sudan and not Brittany', 'why Andorra and not Catalunya'.

As for 'why Kosovo', this is because Serbians went on a killing spree in the 1990s and now face the consequence. There is always some element of coincidence in crime. Some get punished, others walk. France too lost Algeria when it went on a killing spree in the 1950s, complete with the problem of mass expulsion, trampled minority rights, the formation of new minorities and the creation of a mostly mostly barbaric, backward state that was worse than what was before.

[Subotan]

Is it? Oh, Me who thought that we were fighting for Democracy and Freedom… Why do you hate Freedom?

This is the same argument that those who opposed the intervention in Libya because we weren't simultaneously intervening in Syria used. It's silly and a distraction from serious foreign policy debates.

[PanzerJaeger]

@ Panzer: The Government of Kosovo is not controlling all the Kosovo’s territory. The North is still a Serbian Strong Hold and it didn’t stop the majority of the EU countries and the US to decide it could be independent…

You are of course correct. For some reason I thought that issue had been resolved before recognition. Couldn't it be said, though, that the ethnic Albanians are at least united under one government as opposed to the Palestinians who are essentially in a tiny cold war between Fatah and Hamas (the latter of which is regarded as a terrorist organization in the West)?

The ultimate reality is that even if Abbas still controlled Gaza under a united government, US Mideast policy is dictated by Zionist Jews who wouldn't allow it anyway. The current administration has tried to push back on that relationship just a bit and has been suffering the consequences ever since. It will not make that mistake again.

[Brenus]

“It's silly and a distraction from serious foreign policy debates” Is it? Well, I think it is the core of serious debates. It highlights the foreign policy is self-interest. You can decide it is obvious, I can say it is not what we were told.

“As for 'why Kosovo', this is because Serbians went on a killing spree in the 1990s and now face the consequence” Interesting conception of justice and politic… I could easily show that the Israelis killed much more Palestinians than the Serbs killed Albanian Kosovars, but I won’t…
And why the Serbs were the only one “punished” if it is the reason for the USA to recognise Independence? The Croats are guilty of the biggest Ethnic Cleansing of the Yugoslav wars and got their independence within the Tito Administrative Borders… So, I have, with regret, to reject this interesting explanation…

Only Panzer tries to give an answer on why the USA will veto Palestinian Independence. It makes no sense (the veto, not Panzer answer)…
In term of clarity, the Palestinians have much more ground for Independence than Kosovo. Their house and lands were grabbed by Israel, their populations pushed by Israel. In term of Ethnic Cleansing, the Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Albanians are just kids comparing the ultra-Jews…

What arm would come from an independent Palestine, and why the US would oppose to it?

[classical_hero]

Well the Palestinians are the ones who start all the violence. They have had numerous chances to get to the table and work out a peace agreement with the Israelis. In spite of many Palestinian groups calling for the destruction of Israel, Israel has never once called for the destruction of the Palestinian people, in spite the support such groups get. The Palestinian Authority has recieved billions of dollars in aid and yet we don't see any progress in the situation, since the leaders do not really care about the people. If the Jews wantd to cleanse the land from th Palestinian, then the whole area.

So before 1967 were Gaza and the West Bank occupied?

[Subotan]

“It's silly and a distraction from serious foreign policy debates” Is it? Well, I think it is the core of serious debates. It highlights the foreign policy is self-interest.

To say "if we consider things of type X to be good, and are unable acquire all things of type X, then it is wrong to acquire any instances of things of type X is wrong" is a bad, bad argument. There is plenty of room for dicsussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but comparisons to other conflicts and problems are relevant insofar as they might provide possible solutions.

It highlights the foreign policy is self-interest.

False. American/Western foreign policy is much more idealistic than the likes of the foreign policy of China or Russia.

Well the Palestinians are the ones who start all the violence.

"Mum! Mum! Israel hit me!"

"No I didn't! You started it!"

"No you did!"

ad infinitum

In spite of many Palestinian groups calling for the destruction of Israel, Israel has never once called for the destruction of the Palestinian people, in spite the support such groups get.

Generally because the Israeli groups that would all for the destruction of the Palestinian people usually refuse to acknowledge that Palestine even exists as a nation. After all, how a nation be destroyed if it does not already exist?

The Palestinian Authority has recieved billions of dollars in aid and yet we don't see any progress in the situation

The West Bank economy is currently doing rather well actually, in spite of the enormous practical barriers implemented by Israel to prevent free trade between the Authority and Israel

since the leaders do not really care about the people.

[Citation Needed]

[Lemur]

Well the Palestinians are the ones who start all the violence.

Oh for crying out loud, you didn't go there, did you? Are you aware that "he started it" is the trans-national Olympic sport of that region, and a prime factor in why nothing can ever get done?

I mean, really, I can't believe you went there.

[Brenus]

“There is plenty of room for discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but comparisons to other conflicts and problems are relevant insofar as they might provide possible solutions.”
I don’t want to speak about the conflicts, but about a declaration of Independence.

Few ago, Kosovo, being part of Serbia within Internationally Recognised Borders, was allowed to become independent. The reasons behind it are not really the problem.
The strong advocate for it was the USA.

The same USA will veto the Palestinian to do so, even if the ICJ gave a opinion about self-proclaimed Independence. It ruled out that by itself, a declaration of Independence is not illegal.

So the USA are actually in a position to explain why, in one case, carving one territory and declaring independence is the thing to do, and in the other case, to just try to keep what was left to you and to be recognise is not…
Then, the other question is why the USA is opposing this move. Israel has others hostile neighbours and their independence was not revoked…

“So before 1967 were Gaza and the West Bank occupied?” I may be wrong, but before it was part of the Jordan. I think it is in 1968 that Hussein decided that Palestinians were no more his responsibility…

“American/Western foreign policy is much more idealistic than the likes of the foreign policy of China or Russia.” Err, where? I think they are equal in aim and goals.

[Ronin]

False. American/Western foreign policy is much more idealistic than the likes of the foreign policy of China or Russia.

this is true for speeches and posturing, especially during election season...I suspect it's a side effect of all the bunting.
in true practical cases the behavior is much more variable, your mileage may vary.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well the Palestinians are the ones who start all the violence.

Israel was conceived through the use of the same terroristic tactics that the Palestinians are now known for. That doesn't mean the latter are ready for prime time yet, but if you're going to invoke history, shouldn't it be a whole picture? The Palestinians are following a road map to statehood that was established by the Israelis.

[HoreTore]

the creation of a mostly mostly barbaric, backward state that was worse than what was before.

Ahhhh... The sweet, sweet taste of French chauvinism and etnocentrism in the air... What would I ever do without you, Louis?

[Lemur]

Ahhhh... The sweet, sweet taste of French chauvinism and etnocentrism in the air...

Well ... raise your hand if you want to move to Algeria. Anybody? Anybody?

[Strike For The South]

Well ... raise your hand if you want to move to Algeria. Anybody? Anybody?

Is the meal complimentary?

[tibilicus]

Maybe because the faction vying for independence doesn't actually control all of Palestine. One would think that would be a precondition...

And what of the mostly ethnic Serbs in North Kosovo being forced to live in a nation they feel alienated in? Does this different ethnic group who rejects Kosovo independence not count as a different faction?

[Subotan]

So the USA are actually in a position to explain why, in one case, carving one territory and declaring independence is the thing to do, and in the other case, to just try to keep what was left to you and to be recognise is not…

See your answer:

Few ago, Kosovo, being part of Serbia within Internationally Recognised Borders, was allowed to become independent. The reasons behind it are not really the problem.

Those reasons are the problem, and you will find your explanation in the modern history of Kosovo.

“American/Western foreign policy is much more idealistic than the likes of the foreign policy of China or Russia.” Err, where? I think they are equal in aim and goals.

So why did NATO intervene in Libya whilst Russia and China did not? Why did the USA and the EU press Mubarak, Ben Ali, Gaddafi and currently Assad to step down, whilst Russia backed all of those dictators to the hilt? Why does the United States continue to support Taiwan against the Chinese?
I never said it was idealistic, only that it was more so. There's a big difference.

[Greyblades]

Is the meal complimentary?

No but I believe the hotel has a nice selection of free shampoo.

Israel is the USA's most beloved child, while palestine... Isn't. That their activities are uncomfortably familiar to the guys staging attacks on US troops afew thousand miles east of there isn't helping thier public image in the states either. Until that changes I think the "dream of a free palestine" will stay a dream for the next decade or so.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Many reasons. Obama can't afford to say no to Israel, cause that would cost him his head (quite possibly literally). Nobody cares about “poor oppressed Palestinians” in the same manner that Kosovo managed to make the world care about “poor oppressed Kosovars”. Easy really after that UN debacle that was the mid 90's which had painted Serbia into a very dark evil little corner indeed in the public/political consciousness anyway. Lobby, too. By contrast Hamas isn't doing the image of Palestinians a favour and the PLO wasn't very kindly regarded back in the days of Arafat either...

Factions and reality never stood in the way of some big political rhetoric about freedom from either USA or Europe...

[Papewaio]

Ahhhh... The sweet, sweet taste of French chauvinism and etnocentrism in the air... What would I ever do without you, Louis?

Technically isn't the first object the subject for the entire sentence... so isn't he accidentally stating that France is barbaric...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ahhhh... The sweet, sweet taste of French chauvinism and etnocentrism in the air... What would I ever do without you, Louis?

Without me who would you sell those videos to of Norwegian girls undressing for gym that you secretly shoot at your school's dressing room?


On topic: If colonialism was a mistake, then (rapid, forced) decolonisation was a disaster.

Theaters were closed. Schools underfunded. Books banned. But prisons and megamosques build.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Technically isn't the first object the subject for the entire sentence... so isn't he accidentally stating that France is barbaric...

Well Algerian independence did contribute to help France's protracted descent into barbarism...especially in sensitive urban areas of France...

No sooner had the Algerians kicked France out or they all stood at the docks desperately trying to get into France again.


Still, the main point was one of criticism of the last years of the Fourth Republic. One can lose public support, global support, by engaging in beastliness. This is why Algeria became independent. This is why Kosovo became independent, because Serbia / Serbians engaged in barbarism. This is also why Israel is losing global support now.
States can descent into a spiral of violence, become inward-looking, losing any objective view of how the outside world perceives them, descending into barbarism and violence.
Slightly less dramatically, America too can be added to this list, in the first few years after 9-11. Militaristic, inward-looking, autistic, alienating people, complete with falling into the trap of applying torture. More dramatically, Germany in the 1930s belongs to the list too.

[Brenus]

News: K-FOR shoot rubber bullets, tear gas and some reports suggest live rounds to Serbs protesting against the removal of their barricades. The German Troops involved are putting wires around Serbian Population and this is bad. The last time it was during WW2.
Obviously, Kosovo is not united...

So why Palestine can't be independent?

"Those reasons are the problem, and you will find your explanation in the modern history of Kosovo." I though we were speaking of International Rules that could be applied to every body...