Turkish campaign: advice welcome

[Gilrandir]

I'm about to embark on a Turkish campaign in high. My strategy is based on two main objectives: 1) get rid of the Byz in Nicea and Lesser Armenia; 2) get ready for the Horde (start training JHI asap). The tactical aims at the outset include a quick offensive in the direction of Trebizond, Constantinople, Bulgaria, Greece (in this very sequence) and possibly Serbia. I hope to get Egypt as an ally and (when I deem myself ready) to launch a two-pronged attack at the Byz in the mentioned Nicea and Lesser Armenia. I also hope that being in possession of Constantinople I will have a shorter building line to get JHI and be prepared for the Horde. The problems I'm likely to face are many-star Byz generals and few-star mine.
I will be grateful for any tips (either strategic or battle-wise).

[Vladimir]

Turkish Horse Archers.

That is all.

[Brandy Blue]

Horse archers are a great tool, but only if you know how to use them. If you don't, prepare to learn with speed.

Its been ages since I've played vanilla Turks, but don't they get Naphata throwers, or whatever you call them? They might be a handy tool for blowing up Katanks and Varangian guards, but once again you have to know how to use them. Pin the target unit with a junk unit you don't mind losing (its likely to get blown up pretty bad too), turn skirmish off for the Naphata throwers, and either send them behind the enemy unit to blow them up from there, or if that's not safe, have the junk pinning unit provide a protective screen and throw the bombs over their heads. Naphata throwers have terrible accuracy and range problems, so try to fire from close up and with a height advantage. Javelin units used in a similar fashion can also weaken uber units, but I don't think Turks get them, unless by bribery or hiring mercinaries.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

I always play from early myself, so stand by for nonsense, but given that the Horde are imminent, why not head south, take out Egypt, and let the Byz take the hit from the Mongols?

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Gilrandir]

Horse archers are a great tool, but only if you know how to use them. If you don't, prepare to learn with speed.

Its been ages since I've played vanilla Turks, but don't they get Naphata throwers, or whatever you call them? They might be a handy tool for blowing up Katanks and Varangian guards, but once again you have to know how to use them. Pin the target unit with a junk unit you don't mind losing (its likely to get blown up pretty bad too), turn skirmish off for the Naphata throwers, and either send them behind the enemy unit to blow them up from there, or if that's not safe, have the junk pinning unit provide a protective screen and throw the bombs over their heads. Naphata throwers have terrible accuracy and range problems, so try to fire from close up and with a height advantage. Javelin units used in a similar fashion can also weaken uber units, but I don't think Turks get them, unless by bribery or hiring mercinaries.

I like Naptha but I usually use them if I'm the Byz. It is so because their main drawback is inaccuracy in shooting which can be surmounted by raising valor. As you realize, it depends on the command rating of the general which is normally high for the Byz, and is not likely to be high for the Turks. Moreover, the AI is prone to play nasty tricks when I bring Naptha to a battle: it causes rainy weather so I can't use them (well, to be just, it mainly happens in moderate climate). So, I don't think I will rely on Naptha much (at least, not against the Byz).
As for horse archers, I have them in mind, but I can't say I'm very good at using them. I believe that when attacking I should anchor most of my troops on a height and bring forward HA to pester the Kataphracts and drag them around the map to exhaust them. But that is theoretically speaking. Map is not territory, if you know what I mean. But thank you for the advice anyway.

[Gilrandir]

Hi

I always play from early myself, so stand by for nonsense, but given that the Horde are imminent, why not head south, take out Egypt, and let the Byz take the hit from the Mongols?

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

If you remember the map of the high period, the Byz own Georgia, and behind it there are Turkish Armenia and rebel Trebizond. As my experience proves, the Horde ALWAYS takes Georgia, and the feeble Byz garrison of Georgia is not likely to handle them. And then the way to the core Turkish lands is wide open for the Mongols. So heading south is not an option for me, Constantinople and the Balkans look more appealing.

[RRMike]

I am still playing through the factions in early so I'm not familiar with the high starting positions but if it was me it's treb, const. In that order. The fall of const will cripple the byz, economically at least, and you will be hard pressed to get many, if any jhi built even if you had it from the start. The buildings are going to take the better part of your 25 years. I wouldn't screw around with anything else. I'd even leave treb undefended if I needed to to bring enough firepower to const.

Bring as many Saracens as you can get. Use ha to run the kats all over the map, if they will chase, rout the rest of the army off and then make a kat sammich with a couple units of Saracens.

[Gilrandir]

I am still playing through the factions in early so I'm not familiar with the high starting positions but if it was me it's treb, const. In that order. The fall of const will cripple the byz, economically at least, and you will be hard pressed to get many, if any jhi built even if you had it from the start. The buildings are going to take the better part of your 25 years. I wouldn't screw around with anything else. I'd even leave treb undefended if I needed to to bring enough firepower to const.

Bring as many Saracens as you can get. Use ha to run the kats all over the map, if they will chase, rout the rest of the army off and then make a kat sammich with a couple units of Saracens.

In high Trebizond, Constantinople, Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia are all rebel. The Byz are confined to Nicea, Lesser Armenia, Georgia and Rhodes. So taking Constantinople is not about crippling the Byz, but about forestalling them in the same conquerings and getting access to a well developed province and fortress with (supposedly) some title offices which will give some stars to my generals. But thanks for the advice.
When I began playing campaigns, I also started in early, but then I found that for about a 100 years before 1453 I have nothing to do with the whole map being conquered. So now I try to go for more challenging tasks starting from the high (the French, the Turks, HRE).

[RRMike]

Alright then. I'd still beeline for Constantinople if it were me. I'm not sure what buildings are there in high but I'm going to assume you will need to build Master spear, Grand Mosque and MA before you can start training JHI. That's 34 years of building before you can train a single JHI, assuming that the master spear doesn't already exist there on high. Even if it does you have 26 years.

On edit: Is there a fortress there in high or just the Citadel?

[Gilrandir]

Alright then. I'd still beeline for Constantinople if it were me. I'm not sure what buildings are there in high but I'm going to assume you will need to build Master spear, Grand Mosque and MA before you can start training JHI. That's 34 years of building before you can train a single JHI, assuming that the master spear doesn't already exist there on high. Even if it does you have 26 years.

On edit: Is there a fortress there in high or just the Citadel?

I don't remember what level of the castle is in Constantinople, but it is definitely the most developed castle in the vicinity of the Turks, so it is my priority to get there asap.
As for building JHI, I do not hope to perform it before the Horde arrives. But capturing Constantinople will bring this sacred moment nearer. Of course, Mongols are my greatest concern, but I have to rely on two wishful thinkings:
1. What if I become their ally (it happend once or twice when I played the Byz).
2. What if they direct their rage northward and move south only with a small army (well, small enough to be successfully handled).

[drone]

The wiki has Constantinople's starting buildings from all eras (High era extracted from High.txt). It does have a Fortress, if you can get that intact you will be well on your way.

[RRMike]

I don't remember what level of the castle is in Constantinople, but it is definitely the most developed castle in the vicinity of the Turks, so it is my priority to get there asap.
As for building JHI, I do not hope to perform it before the Horde arrives. But capturing Constantinople will bring this sacred moment nearer. Of course, Mongols are my greatest concern, but I have to rely on two wishful thinkings:
1. What if I become their ally (it happend once or twice when I played the Byz).
2. What if they direct their rage northward and move south only with a small army (well, small enough to be successfully handled).

They usually seem to show up with an army that's proportional to what they're going to face. I've seen it speculated that the number of troops on the eastern edge of the map decides it but that's not correct. I've kept all my troops back in Const. before and still watched them show up with 28 stacks while I had only small garrisons in volga, kaz and the Byz a little bit in georgia. The good news being that you may only get 10 or 12 stacks show up, which is manageable in a more conventional manner.

My whole earlier post was to point out how much you need to go to Const. before dinking around with the Byz IMO. Once you have it building and secured then start having fun warring on the Byz or whoever, and some silver armored troops would sure help. That's my only point, your original post talked about a two pronged attack on the Byz, which could well turn into 5 years, that you don't have, of screwing around before you get Const. building. That's the only disagreement. I get started in Const. before I touch the Byz in Asia Minor. Report back though. I'm interested in trying the Turks in high. They were one of the most fun factions that I've played so far.

[Gilrandir]

They usually seem to show up with an army that's proportional to what they're going to face. I've seen it speculated that the number of troops on the eastern edge of the map decides it but that's not correct. I've kept all my troops back in Const. before and still watched them show up with 28 stacks while I had only small garrisons in volga, kaz and the Byz a little bit in georgia. The good news being that you may only get 10 or 12 stacks show up, which is manageable in a more conventional manner.

My whole earlier post was to point out how much you need to go to Const. before dinking around with the Byz IMO. Once you have it building and secured then start having fun warring on the Byz or whoever, and some silver armored troops would sure help. That's my only point, your original post talked about a two pronged attack on the Byz, which could well turn into 5 years, that you don't have, of screwing around before you get Const. building. That's the only disagreement. I get started in Const. before I touch the Byz in Asia Minor. Report back though. I'm interested in trying the Turks in high. They were one of the most fun factions that I've played so far.

I never dream of starting the war on the Byz before trying to get hold of Trebizond, Constantinople, Bulgaria and Greece. My two-pronged attack will wait until that conquest is over. For once, this will bring me the money to continue the offensive. Secondly, the troops that I can train in those rich provinces. The problem is that the Byz may not sit and watch me doing what I want. I can only hope that their single initial unit of Varangians (I guess that it is single because I've been that way playing the Byz in high) will not multiply. I will have enough trouble with those many-star generals.
As for Mongols, in my game they always appear with 10-11 stacks as I never go near Khazar or suchlike steppe provinces before the arrival of the Horde. As I said in some post, I typically conduct what I call "airbag policy", i.e. I try to have some faction(s) between me and the Horde at the moment of their appearance. Evidently, it won't be so easy with the Turks in high.
I will keep you (and others in case they are interested) informed about the progress of my campaign, but it will start a couple of weeks later. Right now I have no time for serious campaigning. I keep collecting advice. And I'm still getting over the loss of my French campaign in high. It was through no fault of mine. In Europe, I possessed everything from Aquitaine to Bohemia and from Wessex to Burgundia-Tyrolia line. In Asia, I kept my three Outremer provinces and added Syria and Palestine to them. What happened, you may ask? Lack of heirs. I had only three kings reigning. So I'm kind of offended at the AI: when it saw that it couldn't beat me it used underhanded ways (stopped giving me heirs). Being offended I'm waiting for my rage to simmer down. And then I'll be ready for the Turks.

[RRMike]

.unfreeze.

I never will lose another game due to lack of heirs. I just say my king legitimized some bastards that he had along the way when he saw the lack of heirs becoming a problem. It's not really much of a cheat anyway. All those uncles that became "un-heirs" in this game would still have claims (their descendants anyway). One of them would simply take the throne and the dynasty would continue.

If you don't know what I'm talking about simply type ".unfreeze." at any time on the campmap and your king's wife will give birth to a son when you hit end turn. You are limited to 6 heirs though, so you can't spam RK this way :)

[Gilrandir]

I have been expecting this advice, but as I have explained elsewhere in this respect I'm like Jose Mourinho - the Special One. I have a russianized version of MTW where no cheatcodes work, so I have to be fair and square.

[Gilrandir]

I would like to ask (I believe Drone as moderator can help): why are some threads marked with five stars, others aren't? Who marks them? Do they give any valor :) ?

[drone]

I believe anyone can rate the threads (this is what the stars represent). There should be a dropdown menu at the top of the page, "Rate This Thread". The number of stars is the average of everyone's rating (no stars if no one rates). Apart from the visual in the sub-forum, no valour is applied to the posters!

[Trapped in Samsara]

...no valour is applied to the posters!

What about weapon or armour upgrades? Can we get those?

V

[drone]

What about weapon or armour upgrades? Can we get those?

V

For better gameplay, armour and weapon upgrades have been modded out.

[Gilrandir]

I believe anyone can rate the threads (this is what the stars represent). There should be a dropdown menu at the top of the page, "Rate This Thread". The number of stars is the average of everyone's rating (no stars if no one rates). Apart from the visual in the sub-forum, no valour is applied to the posters!

I haven't found the dropdown menu you speak of. But if I do, can you rate your own thread?

[drone]

I haven't found the dropdown menu you speak of. But if I do, can you rate your own thread?

I suppose so, never tried it myself. On the STW skin, if you look right above post #1, there should be a bar. On the right hand side of the bar, you should see several options (View first unread, Thread tools, etc.). Click on the one that says "Rate this thread", and it should drop down for the choices.

[Gilrandir]

I suppose so, never tried it myself. On the STW skin, if you look right above post #1, there should be a bar. On the right hand side of the bar, you should see several options (View first unread, Thread tools, etc.). Click on the one that says "Rate this thread", and it should drop down for the choices.

Still can't find it. The bar is there all right but no option in it you think there should be.

[RRMike]

How did this campaign turn out? I was inspired to play Turk, high, expert after this thread and it was one of the best games I've played. The French civil war after losing their ME posessions, and I assume some stuff in western Europe, was unexpected. I'm so used to fighting a massive French empire every game that when I ran into English forces in Egypt it was a nasty surprise. Massed Billmen and Longbowmen are just as good in the hands of the AI as they are in ours. That became the hardest slog I've ever had that far into a game. Usually, once I get established it's simply a matter of choosing who to kill off next but this massive English empire was rich and loved to build Billmen. My single province of JHI production couldn't hope to keep up and I was fighting bills with mostly Saracens and Gazis. Good times.

[Gilrandir]

Regretfully, my plans to play the said campaign are still plans and will stay plans for a couple of weeks longer. This mundane routine does nor leave me any time to tackle it hammer and tongs. So, I'm still yearning to see my Saracens marching over heaped bodies of cataphrakts and varangians. But, as for your game, you didn't mention the Horde arriving. Too early for it or did the mongols turned a piece of cake for you?
P.S. I promise to keep you informed when I embark on the campaign in question.

[RRMike]

Please do. I love talking about the game. Unfortunately I really got into it years too late.

The horde never bothered me. I garrisoned Armenia and treb as well as I could with Saracens and Turk foot and never took Georgia. After they spent themselves on the poles and Huns I killed them fairly easily.

[Gilrandir]

How did you handle the Byz? Did you use the strategy I have in mind or did you have your own?

[RRMike]

Pretty much just ignored them. I took Treb in the first turn or two and immediately took Const, moving a couple peasants up to attempt to keep Treb. Luckily it didn't rebel before I got some watchtowers and border forts built and moved some more units up, on their way to const. I assaulted the fortress on the turn before it fell, since I tried waiting it out, after saving, and it was knocked down to citadel. When I assaulted my little army was gutted but I got the fortress intact. After that I started teching toward JHI there and built lots of saracens and archers elsewhere. By the time I needed to kill off the Byz to secure my borders they were an afterthought. I smashed them with one of the defensive armies I was keeping around Nicea to protect against them surprise attacking me while the Horde were in Georgia.

Basically just go for Const. I was way too worried about Jedi Katanks, probably from always playing from early, where they have amazing generals everywhere and you don't have a lot of units that can deal with those royals. Once I finally decided to clear them out it was easy. I just pinned the king and hit him from behind with some gazi's and it was over in a few seconds. There weren't a lot of quality units there with him. Their budget is severely restricted in high. IIRC I had to do the same with a unit of varangs they had there and they were actually a tougher kill. I think that one cost me most of a unit of sarcs. I don't remember all the details, as I've played a lot of battles since then, but I do remember thinking it was surprisingly easy and I had been dreading it.

[Gilrandir]

It is not the Katank generals that I dread but their multistarrity (I hope I'm still writing English). The valor their junk units (not to mention Varangians) get made my troops rout after a minute or two in a couple of battles. I realize that it was something wrong with my generals' v&v, but still the memory lingers and gives me a kind of apprehension. So, winning the battle against the Byz becomes a psychological issue, and it's not the psychology of the generals that I mean.

[RRMike]

I was the same way. The Byz aren't a problem with Saracens and Ghazis though. Don't sweat it. Just bring your best general, 5 or so Sarcs and 3 or 4 Ghazis and just pin, flank and mop up the leftovers.

I got a healthy respect for the difference their great generals can make while playing Catholic factions in early, but the Turks can flat clean up on them. Saracens are amazing, especially with some armor upgrades and a v1 from a master spear Build them liberally, I use two construction provinces for them, north, with armor upgrades, and south, without.

[Gilrandir]

I have started on the long-expected Turkish campaign at last! As I had planned I captured Trebizond, Const and Greece (not Bulgaria nor Serbia, though - Hungarians forestalled me). Then I turned on the Byz which had been complacent so far - even offered me alliance - I declined the offer. My first battle with the Byz was a failure. They climbed a hill and encircled their position with archers - both foot and mounted. Being unable to dislodge or lure them down I had to attack uphill where it was not so steep. I hoped to sacrifice a unit of Saracens and surround the Byz with other Saracens and Ghazis, but they kept sending Katanks one by one so finally my army routed. But that victory was dearly bought for the Byz. They had only four soldiers out of the Varangian unit and one full Katank royal unit plus 15 men in another (not counting cheap ragtag).
I decided to bide for time and restore my strength (at least to some extent), but the Byz attacked Const and again I lost. But the second battle was touch and go for some time thanks to the mercenary Italian infantry. After it the Byz had only 22-soldier Katank royal unit plus the small fry. Being broke they couldn't replenish their army which I used in the third battle finishing them off completely. The emperor died in it and the faction is no more (he had been calmly staying in the rear watching his three sons dying in the first battle). So now its 1227. The Horde is imminent and I have to build a mosque, grand mosque, military academy and two spearmaker buildings to reach JHI. It will evidently take 40-45 years. So I will have to welcome the Mongols without them. To be continued.....