Iran, Epic Troll

[Jolt]

At the very least, North Korea has enough firepower on the border to make everyone very nervous. There are long-range artillery peices that would be able to pound Seoul the moment the order was given--they wouldn't even have to be moved. The US presence would be a speed-bump despite our technological advantages. The best-case scenario for a war with Korea would be a lot like the first war: Hold them off as long as possible until re-enforcements arrive, but likely they'd push us nearly into the Ocean first.

We tip-toe for a reason.

Push to the South with what Air Force? With what logistics? Unless China spoon-feeds them equipment and supplies, they are not going anywhere if a war breaks out. With a huge army of questionable morale, feeding them is already difficult and fuel rations are everywhere during peace-time, how much more when they are miles into South Korean territory with most of South and North Korea already bombed to smithereens, under the stress of their predicament. At the sight of the first PoWs coming into South Korean/American camps, and being treated generously, it's gonna start a landslide of desertions.

[rvg]

Push to the South with what Air Force? With what logistics? Unless China spoon-feeds them equipment and supplies, they are not going anywhere if a war breaks out. With a huge army of questionable morale, feeding them is already difficult and fuel rations are everywhere during peace-time, how much more when they are miles into South Korean territory with most of South and North Korea already bombed to smithereens, under the stress of their predicament. At the sight of the first PoWs coming into South Korean/American camps, and being treated generously, it's gonna start a landslide of desertions.

The North will have some significant gains, at least initially. No matter how superior the Southern troops in conjunction with the U.S. contingent might be, you cannot ignore the laws of numbers: there's more than a million men on the other side of the border ready to attack at a moment's notice. Northern resources are limited, but they are capable of frontloading so much damage and pushing South at such speed that the limited supplies might not matter. I would bet that North will count on a blitzkrieg, they cannot afford a war of attrition.

[gaelic cowboy]

North Korean missiles used in lavish parade were clumsy fakes – analysts

As usual there pulling our legs again

[Greyblades]

Dang, kim jong un looks dumber than his dad if that's possible.

[drone]

North Korean missiles used in lavish parade were clumsy fakes – analysts

As usual there pulling our legs again

It's not our legs they are pulling. Got to keep the people happy and proud.

[rvg]

It's not our legs they are pulling. Got to keep the people happy and proud.

Indeed...

Kim Jong Un's Feats for Army Building
Pyongyang, April 25 (KCNA) -- On the army day, the servicepersons and civilians of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea pay deep respects to Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army Kim Jong Un, who is bringing a new heyday in the history of the revolutionary armed forces.
Kim Jong Un performed undying feats for building up the Juche-based armed forces, always accompanying leader Kim Jong Il on the road of the Songun (military-first) revolution and acting his closest military aide.
He guided the armed forces to give full play to the politico-ideological might as the army of the leader and the party and developed the Juche-based military idea, theory and war methods on an overall way.
He made a signal contribution to turning the Korean People's Army into an elite army equipped with self-defensive nuclear deterrent and up-to-date military hardware.
With superb commanding art, matchless courage and toughest countermeasure, he has neutralized the enemies' military provocations and war moves.
Thanks to his Songun leadership, the KPA could create the Huichon Speed, a new Chollima Speed, and work epoch-making miracles in the drive to build a thriving nation.
After assuming the supreme commandership, he chose the Seoul Ryu Kyong Su 105 Guards Tank Division of the KPA as the first stop in his field guidance. Regarding soldiers as his closest comrades-in-arms, he made inspection tours of frontline military posts and remote islets, caring so much for them.
Therefore, the men and officers of the KPA have regarded him as the dignity and destiny of the KPA, with firm faith that led by him they would always emerge victorious.
All servicepersons are now filled with resolve to devotedly defend him under the slogan "Let Us Defend with Our Very Lives the Party Central Committee Headed by the Great Comrade Kim Jong Un!" and fully discharge their mission in the struggle for national reunification and accomplishment of the revolutionary cause of Juche.

[Lemur]

As I am fond of saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat:

From his first months in office, President Obama secretly ordered increasingly sophisticated attacks on the computer systems that run Iran’s main nuclear enrichment facilities, significantly expanding America’s first sustained use of cyberweapons, according to participants in the program.

Mr. Obama decided to accelerate the attacks — begun in the Bush administration and code-named Olympic Games — even after an element of the program accidentally became public in the summer of 2010 because of a programming error that allowed it to escape Iran’s Natanz plant and sent it around the world on the Internet. Computer security experts who began studying the worm, which had been developed by the United States and Israel, gave it a name: Stuxnet. [...]

It appears to be the first time the United States has repeatedly used cyberweapons to cripple another country’s infrastructure, achieving, with computer code, what until then could be accomplished only by bombing a country or sending in agents to plant explosives. The code itself is 50 times as big as the typical computer worm, Carey Nachenberg, a vice president of Symantec, one of the many groups that have dissected the code, said at a symposium at Stanford University in April. Those forensic investigations into the inner workings of the code, while picking apart how it worked, came to no conclusions about who was responsible.

A similar process is now under way to figure out the origins of another cyberweapon called Flame that was recently discovered to have attacked the computers of Iranian officials, sweeping up information from those machines. But the computer code appears to be at least five years old, and American officials say that it was not part of Olympic Games. They have declined to say whether the United States was responsible for the Flame attack.

Mr. Obama, according to participants in the many Situation Room meetings on Olympic Games, was acutely aware that with every attack he was pushing the United States into new territory, much as his predecessors had with the first use of atomic weapons in the 1940s, of intercontinental missiles in the 1950s and of drones in the past decade. He repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons — even under the most careful and limited circumstances — could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks.

[Vladimir]

In all seriousness, good article, but it went all NY Times about here: Having falsely accused Saddam Hussein of reconstituting his nuclear program in Iraq, Mr. Bush had little credibility in publicly discussing another nation’s nuclear ambitions.

Gotta put that twist on it.

[Lemur]

In all seriousness, good article, but it went all NY Times about here: Having falsely accused Saddam Hussein of reconstituting his nuclear program in Iraq, Mr. Bush had little credibility in publicly discussing another nation’s nuclear ambitions.

Yeah, I see what you mean; the NYT is describing a political reality from the time (a lot of political capital was destroyed when Iraq turned out to not possess WMDs), but they could have phrased it a little more ... politely?

I am curious about the correct way to refer to sitting and former Presidents. I was under the impression that you called them "President X," as in, "President Bush" or "President Obama." And yet a lot of articles just go with "Mr." I should probably look up the rules in a style guide, but I am too lazy.

-edit-

Okay, I looked. The Chicago Manual of Style is subscriber-locked, which is irritating. So is the AP Manual of Style. What the fudge? Don't these nimrods want us to have correct usage? Clearly time for someone to set up a Wiki Manual of Style kinda thing.

The best reference on usage with presidents I could find was this article, which sorta clears things up.

The reason The Times calls the president Mr. on second reference is not a matter of politics or disrespect but of style. Although the newspaper’s Manual of Style and Usage says the president of the United States can be called president or Mr. once he has been introduced in a news article, in practice it is virtually always Mr. [...]

We always referred to all presidents, Democrats and Republicans alike, by their last names only after the first reference. That practice is common among the printed news media and says more about the flow of language, saving space – and perhaps a certain (small-d) democratic impulse – than it does about disrespect. [...]

I went to the White House to see what folks there think about how the president is referred to in The Times.

Are they upset at the title “Mr. Bush?”

“No, not at all,” said Tony Fratto, the deputy press secretary. “There are lots of things we find disrespectful to the president, usually on the editorial page or in a news analysis, but we take no offense at his titled reference in news articles,” Fratto said.

“Remember,” he said, “We have citizen presidents. Mr. is a perfectly fine title.”

[Vladimir]

Yeah, I see what you mean; the NYT is describing a political reality from the time (a lot of political capital was destroyed when Iraq turned out to not possess WMDs), but they could have phrased it a little more ... politely?...[/ind]

Not to worry. I'm generally biased against them because they'll gladly choose making a buck over national security. They have their place.

It's odd the style manuals are locked. WTH is up with that? Still an interesting story. I haven't yet heard of a direct attribution as to the development of Flame. I suppose they're slightly more legitimate than Iran.

[Fragony]

We just got slapt on tne wrist by the UN from Iran, good fun. We have no respect for human rights it seemss, according to Iran

Why are we in the UN anyway

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why are we in the UN anyway

Because everyone got together and agreed that there is a man out there who goes by the name of Fragony who would be really ticked off if we made stupid resolutions and took them seriously.

[Fragony]

But it isn't my real name, it's a nick

[a completely inoffensive name]

But it isn't my real name, it's a nick

Nonsense. Don't try to deconstruct the characters I have created in my head that surround you and everyone else in the org.

Next you will be telling me that Lemur doesn't actually look like a 19th century infantryman.

[Fragony]

Sorry but he doesn't, they where much more handsome

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sorry but he doesn't, they where much more handsome

So what you are telling me is that you are not a Dutchman who sits on the dock next to the internet cafe sipping on coffee all day lamenting the death of his boat?

[Fragony]

So what you are telling me is that you are not a Dutchman who sits on the dock next to the internet cafe sipping on coffee all day lamenting the death of his boat?

It did't really die it was lost to me, I blame other people

[Papewaio]

Sorry about the loss of your boat. Living in Netherlands without a boat, I hope sea levels really don't rise too much.

=][=

Attacking a countries infrastructure isn't that an act of war? If it isn't how can anyone in anonymous be accused of any crime?

Surely destroying industrial capacity is far more criminal / terrorism / warfare kind of act then revealing which company is funding which think tank or uses a private spy agency.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if there is no official declaration of war, isn't the reciprical A Ok? Doesn't it now mean any entity can virus bomb another one be it a company or country?

Surely a boundary has been crossed. It isn't a one way membrane where a couple of nation states get a free pass. Others are allowed to follow suit. The attacks on the centrifuge was brilliant.

What is particularly stupid on a precedent and strategic level is that anyone can create a computer virus for a relatively cheap cost. Other attacks on command and control systems won't be so well contained. This is not the kind of precedent one should give to China and Russia and the script kiddies. If it is ok for US and Israel to do this with impunity why not anyone else? After all, all is fair in love and war. It's also all fair in apps and viruses.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Sorry about the loss of your boat. Living in Netherlands without a boat, I hope sea levels really don't rise too much.

=][=

On the upside, there are probably plenty of Germans who'd pay good money to extend their beach trip with some scuba city tours.

[Fragony]

Sorry about the loss of your boat. Living in Netherlands without a boat, I hope sea levels really don't rise too much.

Gracias. Selling it is a truly heartfelt decision. It makes me sick every nice day but it got too expensive, winter of doom killed my engine. I kinda suspect a lot of them will be for sale for a good price the comming months though including boarding place. I have not been defeated I WILL have a new one.

[Vladimir]

If National Security means stuffing the free press then fuggitallanyway.

As a matter of fact, it does.

Sorry about the loss of your boat. Living in Netherlands without a boat, I hope sea levels really don't rise too much.

=][=

Attacking a countries infrastructure isn't that an act of war? If it isn't how can anyone in anonymous be accused of any crime?

Surely destroying industrial capacity is far more criminal / terrorism / warfare kind of act then revealing which company is funding which think tank or uses a private spy agency.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if there is no official declaration of war, isn't the reciprical A Ok? Doesn't it now mean any entity can virus bomb another one be it a company or country?

Surely a boundary has been crossed. It isn't a one way membrane where a couple of nation states get a free pass. Others are allowed to follow suit. The attacks on the centrifuge was brilliant.

What is particularly stupid on a precedent and strategic level is that anyone can create a computer virus for a relatively cheap cost. Other attacks on command and control systems won't be so well contained. This is not the kind of precedent one should give to China and Russia and the script kiddies. If it is ok for US and Israel to do this with impunity why not anyone else? After all, all is fair in love and war. It's also all fair in apps and viruses.

We're already at war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosi...med_penetrator

[Sir Moody]

Attacking a countries infrastructure isn't that an act of war? If it isn't how can anyone in anonymous be accused of any crime?

yes it is but only if you get caught - so far all they can prove about Stuxnet and now the Flame virus is they were written by English speaking programmers (the comments are all in English) - not enough to go to war over

Surely destroying industrial capacity is far more criminal / terrorism / warfare kind of act then revealing which company is funding which think tank or uses a private spy agency.

again yes but as with many illegal things its all ok when its the GOVERNMENT doing it...

What is particularly stupid on a precedent and strategic level is that anyone can create a computer virus for a relatively cheap cost. Other attacks on command and control systems won't be so well contained. This is not the kind of precedent one should give to China and Russia and the script kiddies. If it is ok for US and Israel to do this with impunity why not anyone else? After all, all is fair in love and war. It's also all fair in apps and viruses.

China and Russia are ALREADY doing this - the US is late to the party (although late with style - Flame is one hell of a stylish virus) - remember Russia actually shut down an entire countries access to the internet with one attack when said country argued about the price of Gas... (it was blamed on "Russian citizens" but we all know how that works)

the Internet is the new "weapon" in style among all governments, you can target your enemies with little risk of being caught and everything uses computers now... you can do some major damage...

[Kadagar_AV]

Sorry about the loss of your boat. Living in Netherlands without a boat, I hope sea levels really don't rise too much.

=][=

Attacking a countries infrastructure isn't that an act of war? If it isn't how can anyone in anonymous be accused of any crime?

Surely destroying industrial capacity is far more criminal / terrorism / warfare kind of act then revealing which company is funding which think tank or uses a private spy agency.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if there is no official declaration of war, isn't the reciprical A Ok? Doesn't it now mean any entity can virus bomb another one be it a company or country?

Surely a boundary has been crossed. It isn't a one way membrane where a couple of nation states get a free pass. Others are allowed to follow suit. The attacks on the centrifuge was brilliant.

What is particularly stupid on a precedent and strategic level is that anyone can create a computer virus for a relatively cheap cost. Other attacks on command and control systems won't be so well contained. This is not the kind of precedent one should give to China and Russia and the script kiddies. If it is ok for US and Israel to do this with impunity why not anyone else? After all, all is fair in love and war. It's also all fair in apps and viruses.

<- this.

USA is a country. Iran is a country.


To all US citizens - to not come weeping on this forum when someone attacks you. Even better, don't weep anywhere else either.

You have it coming. Face it.

When there is a terrorist / nation attack that makes you suffer a tenth of the people the US has killed over only the last 10 years, I would begin to start listening.

Till then I just cheer on the opposing side.

[Lemur]

You have it coming. Face it.

[Papewaio]

Cyberwarfare is here to stay.

However just like drones it would be better to have at least some sort of legal structure around their use/misuse.

Also as the threshold to create computer viruses is much lower than nuclear weapons my defensive efforts would be reviewing the soft computer infrastructure.

Terrorists will get far more mileage out of computer hacks then explosives will. Take down Facebook and Google for a week and you will get the worlds attention.

Nation states need to remember that terrorists hit soft targets cheaply.

[Kadagar_AV]

I dont even...

Are you serious?

Yepp :)

I don't believe in eye for an eye, but when it comes to an eye for ten (or hundreds of..) eyes I might start actually listening to why you think the loss of the one eye was a terroristic act.

Don't get me wrong, I would only listen because of the comedy of it all.



Papewaio , yeah. If I was the Cobra Commander I would give ten guys a lighter and a passport during the dry season. I don't get why the oppressed have the addiction to aeroplanes, when other solutions would give way more for less.

[Montmorency]

Papewaio , yeah. If I was the Cobra Commander I would give ten guys a lighter and a passport during the dry season. I don't get why the oppressed have the addiction to aeroplanes, when other solutions would give way more for less.

You mean starting forest fires? That would be a national emergency-scale attack. Terminate with military force and extreme prejudice.

[Hax]

Besides, Iran has some very legitimate reasons not to trust the USA at all. In fact, most of the countries in that area have some pretty bad experience with western countries in general.

[Kadagar_AV]

You mean starting forest fires? That would be a national emergency-scale attack. Terminate with military force and extreme prejudice.

I was more thinking along the lines of harvest fires...

And as to the "national emergency-scale" I would put it on the shelf next to the high altitude bombings of Afghanistan the first years.

Come to think of it, I would put it at a lower shelf, since none or very limited lives would be at stake.

[Kadagar_AV]

Besides, Iran has some very legitimate reasons not to trust the USA at all. In fact, most of the countries in that area have some pretty bad experience with western countries in general.

I still wonder about how the world somehow acknowledged (have we!?) that the ONLY country to ever put a nuclear bomb on civilians should be some kind of a moral guideline.