Trojan War Happened In England.

[spankythehippo]

For those of you not familiar with the Trojan War, I'll give a brief explanation.

Menelaus, King of Sparta, married Helen. She was a looker. The Trojans sent an ambassador for some event. Paris was the ambassador. He too, was a looker (no comment). Paris and Helen decided they wanted a life of rowdy and passionate ... erm... love. So they ran away. Menelaus was pissed. He declared war on Troy. Sent all his dudes to get Helen back. Long story short, Troy died, and Helen went back to Sparta.


Now this is the interesting part. Iman Wilkens, a historian, claims that Homer, author of the Iliad, was not from Asia Minor, but was Celtic. And the Trojan War was in England.

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/whe...once-stood.htm

I found this one of the most interesting articles on history. But I'm more of a Norse mythology guy.

[Fisherking]

One obvious trouble with that scenario is Celtic Social Laws. Helen would have just divorced the guy and gone off with Paris. No muss no fuss. She could have even slept with him while married without it being a big to-do. No reason for a world war if it were Celtic Tribes.

I don’t know much about the Authors or their research in Geography but in the Celtic world view these things make no sense.

It is just an Englishman trying to say that his capital city is Troy in my view.

[spankythehippo]

One obvious trouble with that scenario is Celtic Social Laws. Helen would have just divorced the guy and gone off with Paris. No muss no fuss. She could have even slept with him while married without it being a big to-do. No reason for a world war if it were Celtic Tribes.

I don’t know much about the Authors or their research in Geography but in the Celtic world view these things make no sense.

It is just an Englishman trying to say that his capital city is Troy in my view.

The thing is, there is no Helen, and there is no Paris. The Trojan War was all about tin, for making bronze. The war was about resources.

Another thing that is quite interesting, is the sentence, "The face that launched a thousand ships."

Since when was Sparta a naval power? They never had a navy, even though they had admirals in the Persian War. But these admirals were on Athenian ships, because Athens wanted to be on good terms with Sparta during the Persian War. They are strictly a military state. And, according to Homer's Iliad, Troy was sacked and looted. Sparta didn't care for jewels, or gold or anything. Their currency was iron bars, to prevent theft. Spartan people were... well, spartan. That's where that word came from. They had no interests in any superficial items. They were prosperous, but only because of slavery of the Helots.

[Montmorency]

The Trojan War is usually dated to some point before the Spartans you speak of migrated into Greece. It's a bit like criticizing notions of an ancient Egyptian religion by claiming that everyone knows Egyptians thought Allah was the only god.

The Trojan-era Sparta would have been more of a grouping of loosely associated aristocrats. These aristocrats might easily have owned their very own naval craft, with which they would have sailed the Mediterranean looking for plunder and glory: the overarching motivations of a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age aristocrat warrior. Both plunder and glory aplenty would be found at Troy. Anyway, Sparta "only" sent something like 50 ships in the Iliad: 4%.

There isn't even total agreement on the historicity of a "Trojan War". This reinterpretation only makes it less credible. :/

[spankythehippo]

The Trojan War is usually dated to some point before the Spartans you speak of migrated into Greece. It's a bit like criticizing notions of an ancient Egyptian religion by claiming that everyone knows Egyptians thought Allah was the only god.

The Trojan-era Sparta would have been more of a grouping of loosely associated aristocrats. These aristocrats might easily have owned their very own naval craft, with which they would have sailed the Mediterranean looking for plunder and glory: the overarching motivations of a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age aristocrat warrior. Both plunder and glory aplenty would be found at Troy. Anyway, Sparta "only" sent something like 50 ships in the Iliad: 4%.

There isn't even total agreement on the historicity of a "Trojan War". This reinterpretation only makes it less credible. :/

But with all of the ancients, they tend to exaggerate a bit.

Also, the site of Troy in Turkey was desTROYed (geddit... heh heh) by a very inept amateur archaeologist, by the name of Heinrich Schliemann.

Exactly, the Spartans were not Spartans. They were descended from the Dorians, Peloponnesians, and migrants. So Homer was exaggerating, if there was a shred of truth to his story.

And some of the narratives in the Iliad are really far-fetched. When Achilles was about to fight Hector, Hector ran away. Achilles went after him, and circled Troy 7 times. That's quite alot of running. But there's also the story of Pheidippides, who ran from Athens to Sparta in a single day.

[Fisherking]

The thing is, there is no Helen, and there is no Paris. The Trojan War was all about tin, for making bronze. The war was about resources.

Another thing that is quite interesting, is the sentence, "The face that launched a thousand ships."

A war over anything but women is likely. Evidence of battles though dose not make it the Trojan War.

Tell us how they put together the story. Is this just conjecture ? How did they put the story together?

[spankythehippo]

A war over anything but women is likely. Evidence of battles though dose not make it the Trojan War.

Tell us how they put together the story. Is this just conjecture ? How did they put the story together?

Which story? The Troy that Sparta fought or the Troy in England?

[Montmorency]

Exactly, the Spartans were not Spartans. They were descended from the Dorians, Peloponnesians, and migrants. So Homer was exaggerating, if there was a shred of truth to his story.

Yes, which tends to refute the point to which I replied.

And some of the narratives in the Iliad are really far-fetched. When Achilles was about to fight Hector, Hector ran away. Achilles went after him, and circled Troy 7 times. That's quite alot of running. But there's also the story of Pheidippides, who ran from Athens to Sparta in a single day.

...

What does this have to do with a "English" Trojan War? You're going off on tangents. Anyway, no one disputes that ancient epics are exaggerated in nature.

[spankythehippo]

Yes, which tends to refute the point to which I replied.



...

What does this have to do with a "English" Trojan War? You're going off on tangents. Anyway, no one disputes that ancient epics are exaggerated in nature.

It doesn't have anything to do with the English Trojan War, it's just some examples of some of Homer's tales.


The evidence that Wilkens is providing is predominantly the landscape and the naming of places in England. Caer Troia is the Celtic city of Troy.

Taken from the website in my first post:

The Achaeans built 1186 ships for their attack on Troy, they could have travelled the short distance overland far quicker and cheaper if Troy really had been in the Greek and Turkish Mediterranean setting.
The Turkish setting had no nearby bay or port large enough to accommodate anything near the size of Achaean fleet.
The Turkish setting plain is not large enough to accommodate the invading army of about 100,000 men and the long pursuits in horse-drawn chariots.
No bronze weapons have been found at the Turkish Troy site.
The Greek (Mycenaean) civilisation died out at the beginning of the Trojan War, so where not in a position to launching or sustain a large long term war.
Agamemnon took a full month to sail from his kingdom Argos to Ithaca, we know the trip takes less than 24 hours in the Mediterranean setting.
Odysseus claimed to have got home by travelling as a passenger on a ship going from Crete to Sidon (present day Saïda in Lebanon), but that is the opposite direction he needed to go in the Mediterranean setting.
The philosophy of Homer is very different from the beliefs of the Greeks who thought there were two opposite elements such as good and evil, Homer's writings reveal three such forces which are known Celtic notions, suggesting Homer was a Celt.



Please note, that I am taking neither side in this historical debate. Just bringing forward evidence from both sides.

[CountArach]

In my opinion and from the reading I have done, the Trojan war never actually occurred and the poems are just a reflection of a mytho-historical narrative. To attempt to derive any modernist version of history from poems that changed over centuries of word-of-mouth compilation within a society that we know very little about would be absolutely impossible.

Also Homer never existed.

[spankythehippo]

In my opinion and from the reading I have done, the Trojan war never actually occurred and the poems are just a reflection of a mytho-historical narrative. To attempt to derive any modernist version of history from poems that changed over centuries of word-of-mouth compilation within a society that we know very little about would be absolutely impossible.

Also Homer never existed.

To support this statement, Homer (if he lived) was alive around 300 years after the event in question. So this could possibly be the equivalent of making grandpa's stupid stories into "facts".


When you say "Homer never existed", do you mean that he isn't who everyone says he is?

[CountArach]

When you say "Homer never existed", do you mean that he isn't who everyone says he is?

I mean what I said. It is a very rare Homeric scholar who believes that Homer ever existed. The poems were being composed by word-of-mouth for centuries on end in all parts of the Hellenic world, and many different versions abounded, with no single 'canon' version. If my memory does not fail me, what we have was put together by the Athenians who wanted a uniform version that could be sung at the Olympic games. If you want evidence for this look at the catalogue of ships and note that Athens is mentioned, despite the fact that it would have been nothing at the alleged point of the war.

[spankythehippo]

I mean what I said. It is a very rare Homeric scholar who believes that Homer ever existed. The poems were being composed by word-of-mouth for centuries on end in all parts of the Hellenic world, and many different versions abounded, with no single 'canon' version. If my memory does not fail me, what we have was put together by the Athenians who wanted a uniform version that could be sung at the Olympic games. If you want evidence for this look at the catalogue of ships and note that Athens is mentioned, despite the fact that it would have been nothing at the alleged point of the war.

Fabled scholars are very common in ancient times. Lycurgus is one of them. There happens to be very little evidence of his existence, yet there are stone busts of him, like there are of Homer.

[CountArach]

Fabled scholars are very common in ancient times. Lycurgus is one of them. There happens to be very little evidence of his existence, yet there are stone busts of him, like there are of Homer.

Indeed, but that is still not evidence for his existence. Every city needs to have a founder, just as every poem has to have a poet and if no historical one exists then myth-making will suffice.

[spankythehippo]

Indeed, but that is still not evidence for his existence. Every city needs to have a founder, just as every poem has to have a poet and if no historical one exists then myth-making will suffice.

The same can be said with Persian kings. If you look at all the carvings, all the kings look like their god, Ahuramazda. Either they modeled themselves after Ahuramazda, or it's a sham. But I would like to say, Xerxes did not look like a transvestite, according to the carvings, which is more accurate than the movie. The movie was good, but historically inaccurate. And he did not consider himself a god.

A more probable reason behind these fabled men is that of a group of people making decisions and telling the masses that there once existed a hero that protected the people's way of life (or something along those lines). In the case of Lycurgus, these group of men created Lycurgus' Reforms. This is just a theory.

I also have a theory on all Abrahamic religions that relate to this, but I won't state it, in case anyone gets offended.

[CountArach]

A more probable reason behind these fabled men is that of a group of people making decisions and telling the masses that there once existed a hero that protected the people's way of life (or something along those lines). In the case of Lycurgus, these group of men created Lycurgus' Reforms. This is just a theory.

That is a valid enough theory. I would generally perhaps broaden it out from a group of elites deciding that they needed to justify their own rule to instead stating that he was created in a society needing to justify the various priveleges that a particular social grouping enjoyed.

I also have a theory on all Abrahamic religions that relate to this, but I won't state it, in case anyone gets offended.

You should check out the backroom. Lots of people happy to discuss religion back there.

[spankythehippo]

That is a valid enough theory. I would generally perhaps broaden it out from a group of elites deciding that they needed to justify their own rule to instead stating that he was created in a society needing to justify the various priveleges that a particular social grouping enjoyed.

Most ancient societies were oligarchies, so they had the power to bend anything to their will.

You should check out the backroom. Lots of people happy to discuss religion back there.

I'm a nihilistic atheist. I won't fit. And I tend to be a bit harsh with my words.

[CountArach]

Most ancient societies were oligarchies, so they had the power to bend anything to their will.

Indeed they were but class is only one way of looking at power.

I'm a nihilistic atheist. I won't fit. And I tend to be a bit harsh with my words.

That first one would put you in the majority. It is worth at least reading the debates and seeing what you think first.

[drone]

I'm a nihilistic atheist. I won't fit.

You would fit in just fine.

[Arjos]

As people pointed out that author is taking a corpus of epic cycles as historical reports...

Your superposition of classical Sparte customs and laws over the mycenaean one is just plain wrong...

The name Troia afaik is a later one, so the place names in England are just more legendary eponyms from roman times (btw all over Europe there are very similar stories and places)...
Also the case of an english Troy is very old, iirc there are norman chronicles which invented it from those very romano-british epic tales...

As for the "Keltic" names, archaeology has discovered how Ilion had a Thracian/Phrygian/Hittite cultural atmosphere, with for example ram and solar worships...

All this keltic and greek character about the Trojan War, is pretty laughable if you ask me: both cultures established and came to be around the 9th/8th centuries BC, much later than the Homeric Ilion, which is a legend narratively imposed over the classical greek world, with all the exagerations and figures of speech proper of epic poetry...

[spankythehippo]

So... umm... yeah. It seems like I can't post a reply or start a thread in the backroom. How about if I state my theory in here?

[drone]

So... umm... yeah. It seems like I can't post a reply or start a thread in the backroom. How about if I state my theory in here?

I believe this is up to date. The BR mods will get you in.

[spankythehippo]

I believe this is up to date. The BR mods will get you in.

Oh. It sounds so cool that I have to "join the group." Like a cult. Oh yeah.

[drone]

One of us. One of us. One of us.

[Lazy O]

Of course it happened in England, and Thermopalye happened in front of my house, 10 minutes ago.

[Vladimir]

Of course it happened in England, and Thermopalye happened in front of my house, 10 minutes ago.

How did they dress?

[Veho Nex]

I think Romans and Greeks during the height of their power took myths from other lands and turned them into their own. There are groups out there who believe Atlantis was really Indian in the beginning and that Alexander brought the myth of it back and turned it into how we see Atlantis today.

[Lazy O]

How did they dress?

I am honestly amazed that some people are actually taking this seriously.

[Arjos]

I am honestly amazed that some people are actually taking this seriously.

Amazing is how poorly sarcasm works in the net and written form :P

[Conradus]

I think Romans and Greeks during the height of their power took myths from other lands and turned them into their own. There are groups out there who believe Atlantis was really Indian in the beginning and that Alexander brought the myth of it back and turned it into how we see Atlantis today.

How can that be possible since one of the first mentions of Atlantis was in Plato's books, wasn't it? And at that time Alex still had to go to India.