Were Scythed Chariots really that effective against cavalry?

**Dragannia** · 03-20-2012, 06:16

In EB scythed chariots chew up cavalry faster than anything I've ever seen. I have no idea why (lethality too high?). I've simmed battles against very hard AI, using a single unit of scythed chariots against 2 squads of hetairoi or kataphractoi and they win without taking many casualties (like 5 or 6 chariots lost vs 140 odd elite cavalry). Were they always this effective against cavalry in real life? I mean I guess it does make a bit of sense, what with blades not being exactly healthy to horses, but were there actually historical accounts of scythed chariot against cavalry?

**Basileus_ton_Basileon** · 03-20-2012, 06:55

That is because of the limitations of the RTW engine. Historically, chariots (and their scythed variants) had an advantage over cavalry because of the stability it provided for the warriors and/or archers on it.

However, this advantage is entirely restricted to level, flat, unobstructed terrain. Hills, forest, even bumpy bits on the ground will quickly negate the advantage of wheels, handing the advantage off to cavalry. Chariots are also less maneuverable than horses, the rider having to control multiple animals pulling a wagon as opposed to just an animal cantering.

The rtw engine does nothing to address any of these limitations. The only penalties hilly terrains bring are universal stamina penalties.

**Ca Putt** · 03-20-2012, 12:48

that and Chariots being totally useless when an odd obstacle (aka a wall) appears, unlike cavalry, who are just considerably less usefull :D

**WildthingJr** · 03-20-2012, 13:19

I believe chariots were not commonly used anymore during the timeframe of EB. I've read in some places that Gaugamela was the last battle in which they were used as an independent unit, and they failed. Alexander's phalanxes opened gaps in their lines through which the chariots drove and lost momentum, then slaughtered them in melee.

**Titus Marcellus Scato** · 03-20-2012, 13:22

Originally Posted by Dragannia

In EB scythed chariots chew up cavalry faster than anything I've ever seen. I have no idea why (lethality too high?). I've simmed battles against very hard AI, using a single unit of scythed chariots against 2 squads of hetairoi or kataphractoi and they win without taking many casualties (like 5 or 6 chariots lost vs 140 odd elite cavalry). Were they always this effective against cavalry in real life? I mean I guess it does make a bit of sense, what with blades not being exactly healthy to horses, but were there actually historical accounts of scythed chariot against cavalry?

I think they're overpowered, personally. I've nerfed mine down a bit.

**seleucid empire** · 03-20-2012, 13:26

well their morale is utter crap so that balances out a bit. ive never seen them chew through elite cav, and i only play medium battles. They always seem to rout after like 2 seconds if unless i click behind their unit and that doesn't do much damage to kataphracti. However they often run amok among enemies and do heaps of damage :D

**Brave Brave Sir Robin** · 03-20-2012, 15:09

Originally Posted by WildthingJr

I believe chariots were not commonly used anymore during the timeframe of EB. I've read in some places that Gaugamela was the last battle in which they were used as an independent unit, and they failed. Alexander's phalanxes opened gaps in their lines through which the chariots drove and lost momentum, then slaughtered them in melee.

They were used at Magnesia with disastrous effects for the Seleucids who deployed them. In fact, their misuse might have caused the defeat of the Seleucids in that battle as they were driven back by missiles right into a camel corps which then fled through Antiochus' left flank completely disrupting the heavy cavalry stationed there and allowing Eumenes to rout them off the field easily.

I think Pontus also used them ineffectually against the Romans, perhaps at Chaeronea? I'm not sure atm.

**Moros** · 03-20-2012, 21:35

Some good information on scythed chariots can be found here: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...dchariots.html.

**Lazy O** · 03-22-2012, 19:18

Lance armed cavalry kill all chariots quite easily.

**moonburn** · 03-23-2012, 18:53

somehow i doubt it a charriot after gaining momentum is very hard to tackle down while the horseman of those days where probably mounting unsatled horses and had no sitrrups so a simple push and you could probably knockdown one of them from the horse

also horses where smalled then nowadays so 2 horses pulling 1 man would have been far more effective even if less manouverable (but hey scytched chariots where to be used against infantry and not cavlary)

good link also about the uses and missuses of the schytched chariot (altough why where they called schyted if they weren´t scythians ? )

**rickinator9** · 03-23-2012, 20:56

I think because of the scythes on the wheels of the chariot?

**Brave Brave Sir Robin** · 03-23-2012, 22:55

Lazy's referring to ingame rather than real life. If cavalry get off a charge head on against chariots they will insta-kill the first line and probably rout the unit. If the cavalry don't lower their spears successfully though, its game over for them. Chariots really only offer amazing success or devestating failure in that regard.

**Lazy O** · 03-24-2012, 08:36

And most of the time it is devastating failure, most people in MP panic at the first sight of them and run their super catas away, not knowing that a simple charge will demolish the chariots .

**antisocialmunky** · 03-24-2012, 23:44

Well they are great if you hold them back until well after the game is engaged because the chariots can dive in and rout a slightly worn down line quite easily.