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Thread: Obamacare Going Down?

  1. #31

    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    I don't think that is a truth.
    You are correct. I meant to imply that end of life care takes up the vast majority of the differential between our system and comparable ones in comparison to the other factors often listed as reasons for that differential, which is based on my reading of sources such as this.

    Changes in the way Americans die are mirrored in health care cost patterns. The overwhelming preponderance of U.S. health care costs now arise in the final years of life. Indeed, if one were to estimate costs across a life span, the shape of the expenditures reflects the new health and demographic circumstances. Figure 1 presents a rough estimate of health care costs distributed across the average American's lifetime. The final phase of life, when living with eventually fatal chronic illnesses, has the most intense costs and treatments. A similar curve for the U.S. population in 1900 would have been flatter, both because serious illness was more common throughout life and because death often occurred suddenly. Neither clinical services delivery nor Medicare has kept pace with the changes in the pattern of needs that underlie these costs.

    Of course such statements take into account the actual care plus the administrative and other related costs which, as Lemur pointed out, can be very costly. Thanks for pointing that out.

    On the subject, here is a good article about our society's distorted view of end of life care. Without changes to that view and the way end of life care is handled, the popular fixes politicians from both sides of the aisle like to proscribe will only be peripheral. Nobody wants to tell the elderly (voters) or their doctors that they should not attempt to defy natural law on the public dime.

    This is the moment in Sara’s story that poses a fundamental question for everyone living in the era of modern medicine: What do we want Sara and her doctors to do now? Or, to put it another way, if you were the one who had metastatic cancer—or, for that matter, a similarly advanced case of emphysema or congestive heart failure—what would you want your doctors to do?

    The issue has become pressing, in recent years, for reasons of expense. The soaring cost of health care is the greatest threat to the country’s long-term solvency, and the terminally ill account for a lot of it. Twenty-five per cent of all Medicare spending is for the five per cent of patients who are in their final year of life, and most of that money goes for care in their last couple of months which is of little apparent benefit.

    Spending on a disease like cancer tends to follow a particular pattern. There are high initial costs as the cancer is treated, and then, if all goes well, these costs taper off. Medical spending for a breast-cancer survivor, for instance, averaged an estimated fifty-four thousand dollars in 2003, the vast majority of it for the initial diagnostic testing, surgery, and, where necessary, radiation and chemotherapy. For a patient with a fatal version of the disease, though, the cost curve is U-shaped, rising again toward the end—to an average of sixty-three thousand dollars during the last six months of life with an incurable breast cancer. Our medical system is excellent at trying to stave off death with eight-thousand-dollar-a-month chemotherapy, three-thousand-dollar-a-day intensive care, five-thousand-dollar-an-hour surgery. But, ultimately, death comes, and no one is good at knowing when to stop.

    The subject seems to reach national awareness mainly as a question of who should “win” when the expensive decisions are made: the insurers and the taxpayers footing the bill or the patient battling for his or her life. Budget hawks urge us to face the fact that we can’t afford everything. Demagogues shout about rationing and death panels. Market purists blame the existence of insurance: if patients and families paid the bills themselves, those expensive therapies would all come down in price. But they’re debating the wrong question. The failure of our system of medical care for people facing the end of their life runs much deeper. To see this, you have to get close enough to grapple with the way decisions about care are actually made.

    Recently, while seeing a patient in an intensive-care unit at my hospital, I stopped to talk with the critical-care physician on duty, someone I’d known since college. “I’m running a warehouse for the dying,” she said bleakly. Out of the ten patients in her unit, she said, only two were likely to leave the hospital for any length of time. More typical was an almost eighty-year-old woman at the end of her life, with irreversible congestive heart failure, who was in the I.C.U. for the second time in three weeks, drugged to oblivion and tubed in most natural orifices and a few artificial ones. Or the seventy-year-old with a cancer that had metastasized to her lungs and bone, and a fungal pneumonia that arises only in the final phase of the illness. She had chosen to forgo treatment, but her oncologist pushed her to change her mind, and she was put on a ventilator and antibiotics. Another woman, in her eighties, with end-stage respiratory and kidney failure, had been in the unit for two weeks. Her husband had died after a long illness, with a feeding tube and a tracheotomy, and she had mentioned that she didn’t want to die that way. But her children couldn’t let her go, and asked to proceed with the placement of various devices: a permanent tracheotomy, a feeding tube, and a dialysis catheter. So now she just lay there tethered to her pumps, drifting in and out of consciousness.

    Almost all these patients had known, for some time, that they had a terminal condition. Yet they—along with their families and doctors—were unprepared for the final stage. “We are having more conversation now about what patients want for the end of their life, by far, than they have had in all their lives to this point,” my friend said. “The problem is that’s way too late.” In 2008, the national Coping with Cancer project published a study showing that terminally ill cancer patients who were put on a mechanical ventilator, given electrical defibrillation or chest compressions, or admitted, near death, to intensive care had a substantially worse quality of life in their last week than those who received no such interventions. And, six months after their death, their caregivers were three times as likely to suffer major depression. Spending one’s final days in an I.C.U. because of terminal illness is for most people a kind of failure. You lie on a ventilator, your every organ shutting down, your mind teetering on delirium and permanently beyond realizing that you will never leave this borrowed, fluorescent place. The end comes with no chance for you to have said goodbye or “It’s O.K.” or “I’m sorry” or “I love you.”


    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...#ixzz1qNy5IemW
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 03-28-2012 at 06:17.

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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    The goal should be Maximizing care while minimizing cost. The individual mandate is a middle ground which keeps the bloat of the medical industry intact under the guise of "universial health care"

    I just want an NHS, Sorry for being fiscally respobsible
    NHS vote from me too. Obama's health reform is fundamentally flawed because it goes out of its way to preserve the private system for no other reason than "just because." It has no point other than to perpetuate its existence, working around it or within its framework can't help but be inefficient and costly.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Whatever. My logic is flawed but it looks like this will be a win-win for me anyway. If it is upheld Obama wins, if it fails we are that much closer to single payer.


  4. #34
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    The issue is does the federal government have the authority to compel people to buy health insurance?
    I agree that seems to be the issue. I just find it strange to accept that the federal government has the authority to compel people indirectly to buy services - for example, to pay taxes to buy defence, welfare, medicare, etc - but to challenge its authority to compel people to buy them directly.

    A mandate is potentially[1] a more efficient system than a purely public (NHS type) system. It should require less taxation and avoids public sector provision. It gives people more freedom around the edges, e.g. to buy more than the mandated amount or vary the quality bought, to shop around different providers etc. I would have thought as a market friendly solution to the health care problem, it might have appealed in America. It did to Romney.

    To Scalia's question "where does the authority stop?" I think an answer would be along the lines of Rawls's "primary goods" - things that are so important we think everyone should have a decent amount of them. That would mainly consist of security (defence, law enforcement), education and health care but might include a few others. Mandating people to buy Fall of the Samurai is clearly silly; mandating them to send their kids to school is common sense.




    [1]In reality, market failures in health care might mean the NHS type system is better, but it is not cut and dried. In the UK, there are constant initiatives to try to improve quality and choice as public provision alone does not guarantee those.
    Last edited by econ21; 03-28-2012 at 08:12.

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  5. #35
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Sounds like too much cost is going into decreasing quality of death rather then increasing quality of life.

    If you gave grandparents the choice of a quick painless death and increased health care for their grandchildren OR a long drawn out death rattle that draws down on the pool of money that can be used for their grandchildren... I think most of us would make a good choice for our genes.

    However make it a case of having the amorphous government pay and most of us see it as a blank check.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    The goal should be Maximizing care while minimizing cost. The individual mandate is a middle ground which keeps the bloat of the medical industry intact under the guise of "universial health care"

    I just want an NHS, Sorry for being fiscally respobsible
    That's pretty much the best summary I've seen of the individual mandate.

    It is interesting to me that some of the people supporting an NHS-style system are also some of the people talking up Ron Paul in the nomination thread
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    I think it's kind of strange to walk into this conversation and tell everyone what the issue is or isn't. Nor do I see how it's illegitimate to discuss the long-term ramifications if the law gets struck down.

    The USA's system of healthcare is problematic, as most anyone would agree. The Obama administration tried to apply a fix, which now looks to be nullified. All we're hearing from the GOP is the same small-ball. Surely, beyond the legal question of the Commerce Clause, there is a legitimate conversation to be had about what we do next, yes? I do believe that was posited as the central question of my OP, yes?
    That would be admiting that the "market" doesnt always work properly, reality is the market often needs to be hammered into insensibility with a 10lb sledge hammer.

    When we say were in favour of free markets were making a political not an economic statement, we know this cos no one has a real free markets except places like somalia.

    GOP needs to man up and admit there in favour of poorer voters dieing from easily treatable ailments.

    We will see then if ye want the current system of death due to insurance company small print or some kind of A.N.H.S.

    We all know there is flaws in NHS style medicine were not eejits but there very small beer compared american healthcare.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 03-28-2012 at 12:02.
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  8. #38
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Ganked from the GOP thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I am aware of the relative strengths (cost, coverage) and weaknesses (care) of the NHS. Why would we want to replace our own mediocre system with another mediocre system? As I said, there are much better models to choose from.
    This is interesting—to which models are you referring? I'd like to read up a bit more on the alternatives. (Since we're all history nerds to greater or lesser degrees: Here's the original Heritage Foundation rollout for their conservative proposal of an "individual mandate." Wheels in the sky, keep on turnin' ...)

    -edit-

    An eassayist sums up my worries about the GOP's lack of anything resembling a plan. I would only add that if the Supremes invalidate Obamacare, the Republicans will also need a plan. Not for campaigning; they can get many miles per gallon by railing against Obamacare/Romneycare. But for governing? Yeah, they're going to need to belly up to the bar and put something down.

    Make no mistake: If Republicans lose in the Supreme Court, they'll need an answer. "Repeal" may excite a Republican primary electorate that doesn't need to worry about health insurance because it's overwhelmingly over 65 and happily enjoying its government-mandated and taxpayer-subsidized single-payer Medicare system. But the general-election electorate doesn't have the benefit of government medicine. It relies on the collapsing system of employer-directed care. It's frightened, and it wants answers.

    "Unconstitutional" was an answer of a kind. But if the ACA is not rejected as "unconstitutional," the question will resurface: if you guys don't want this, want do you want instead?

    In that case, Republicans will need a Plan B. Unfortunately, they wasted the past three years that might have developed one. If the Supreme Court doesn't rescue them from themselves, they'll be heading into this election season arguing, in effect, Our plan is to take away the government-mandated insurance of millions of people under age 65, and replace it with nothing. And we're doing this so as to better protect the government-mandated insurance of people over 65—until we begin to phase out that insurance, too, for everybody now under 55.

    That's a different version of "all or nothing"—and one that invites the voters to answer: "nothing."

    Last edited by Lemur; 03-28-2012 at 14:28.

  9. #39
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Death panels? Oh, we are up with the Media Hype.

    Until healthcare is infinite there will always be rationing. Who gets organs is decided by a panel of experts, and yes, those who don't get them have an increased chance of dying.

    People are increasingly demanding of the NHS. A cough for 2 weeks - quick, off to the GP!

    I am not advocating this as the "good old days" but one elderly patient informed me that pre-NHS, seeing the GP would be the pay for a day or so - not something taken lightly. I personally think that a nominal charge attending both A&E and one's GP. In France, people are expected to bring all their medical records to their doctor and this is considered normal, so I don't think paying a small payment isn't unreasonable, and would help preserve the system for the future.

    The poor will always try to save costs. While I sympathise with your motivation the result would be to discourage certain socio-economic groups from using the NHS - that violates it's basic principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    But the problem with your analogy is that people can opt out of using automobiles. Forcing people to purchase goods/services from private entities just for being alive is a bad precedent to make, especially considering the corporate influence over our current government. SCOTUS needs to kill Obamacare for this reason. Try again with a single-payer system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Whether it's a good bill or not (I think not) isn't at issue here. Whether we need single-payer or market based healthcare is also not at issue. The issue is does the federal government have the authority to compel people to buy health insurance?

    Case law presents us with several twisted and strained abuses of the Commerce Clause (Wickard v. Filburn), but Obamacare, if upheld, would outdo them all. It would not prevent you from taking a certain action- it would compel you to take action under the guise of regulating interstate commerce. To paraphrase Justice Kennedy, it would be forcing you into a market so that the government can regulate you. This is frightening stuff. If the court were to uphold this, what could the government not force you to do under the fig leaf of the commerce clause?

    Luckily for us, early indications are that this will be overturned. I welcome such a decision and hope it's just a beginning step in rolling back the power of the commerce clause to that which it was originally intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Ganked from the GOP thread:


    This is interesting—to which models are you referring? I'd like to read up a bit more on the alternatives. (Since we're all history nerds to greater or lesser degrees: Here's the original Heritage Foundation rollout for their conservative proposal of an "individual mandate." Wheels in the sky, keep on turnin' ...)

    -edit-

    An eassayist sums up my worries about the GOP's lack of anything resembling a plan. I would only add that if the Supremes invalidate Obamacare, the Republicans will also need a plan. Not for campaigning; they can get many miles per gallon by railing against Obamacare/Romneycare. But for governing? Yeah, they're going to need to belly up to the bar and put something down.

    Make no mistake: If Republicans lose in the Supreme Court, they'll need an answer. "Repeal" may excite a Republican primary electorate that doesn't need to worry about health insurance because it's overwhelmingly over 65 and happily enjoying its government-mandated and taxpayer-subsidized single-payer Medicare system. But the general-election electorate doesn't have the benefit of government medicine. It relies on the collapsing system of employer-directed care. It's frightened, and it wants answers.

    "Unconstitutional" was an answer of a kind. But if the ACA is not rejected as "unconstitutional," the question will resurface: if you guys don't want this, want do you want instead?

    In that case, Republicans will need a Plan B. Unfortunately, they wasted the past three years that might have developed one. If the Supreme Court doesn't rescue them from themselves, they'll be heading into this election season arguing, in effect, Our plan is to take away the government-mandated insurance of millions of people under age 65, and replace it with nothing. And we're doing this so as to better protect the government-mandated insurance of people over 65—until we begin to phase out that insurance, too, for everybody now under 55.

    That's a different version of "all or nothing"—and one that invites the voters to answer: "nothing."

    The thing I take away from all your posts is this:

    The law is probably unconstitutional, and that is because your constitution doesn't allow for or permit government providing services for the common good. This explains why their are parts of the US where there are no Police, only sheriffs, and no fire service at all. This obvioulsy intentional, but while it may have been appropriate to a rapidly expanding pioneer nations, where government intervention was neither practical nor desiable, it is not appropriate to a modern developed state.

    Your constitution needs ammending.
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  10. #40
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The law is probably unconstitutional, and that is because your constitution doesn't allow for or permit government providing services for the common good.
    No, that's not the case. Taxing the population to pay for the military would be unconstitutional if that interpretation held. What's problematic with the Heritage Foundation's Mitt Romney's Obama's proposal of an individual mandate is that the government is demanding citizens enter into a business arrangement with a private company. That's the stumbling block. (Interestingly, Paul Ryan's proposal to privatize Social Security would contain the exact same requirement. So the death knell of Obamacare will also, necessarily, be the death rattle of privatizing Social Security.)

    That's why many of us are looking at the looming wreckage and concluding that some sort of single-payer program may be the only workable solution, long-term. If the government does not have the power to force you into buying health insurance (and that's a legitimate interpretation, BTW), then we may just have to call a tax a tax and get it over with.
    Last edited by Lemur; 03-28-2012 at 15:25.

  11. #41
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The law is probably unconstitutional, and that is because your constitution doesn't allow for or permit government providing services for the common good. This explains why their are parts of the US where there are no Police, only sheriffs, and no fire service at all. This obvioulsy intentional, but while it may have been appropriate to a rapidly expanding pioneer nations, where government intervention was neither practical nor desiable, it is not appropriate to a modern developed state.

    Your constitution needs ammending.
    It most certainly does not need amending. Obamacare's individual mandate provision is an abomination that needs to be struck down. If that results in the rest of the Obamacare going down, then so be it. I will not sacrifice my liberty so that the feds have an easier time balancing their books, there has to be another way. Obamacare does have a few good aspects, but those are totally overshadowed by the monstrosity of the individual mandate. It is wrong, it is unamerican, I can only hope that the SCOTUS does the right thing and strikes it down.
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  12. #42
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    I want to see the court reject the federal governments ability to abuse the commerce clause without limit.im in favore of a mandate, but at the state level. I want to see a weakened federal government, but im not sure that the idea of some sort of mandate would be unconstitutional. Put a mandatory lein on paychecks for failure to pay medical bills if you are uninsured, but let the states work out what ismost effective.

    Id rather the court decide that the enumeration of powers allows questions of authority to default to states than have them reject a mandate out of hand
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-28-2012 at 15:21.
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  13. #43
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    let the states work out what ismost effective.
    The states have had well over fifty years to work out what's most effective. You know what works for most of them? Turning around and demanding that the Feds subsidize their Medicare, Medicaid and child health programs. That's what they like.* I'm sorry, but the fifty states have pretty much dropped the ball and walked away on this one.



    * Yes, I know it's more complicated than that, but I'm exaggerating for effect, and you know you love it.
    Last edited by Lemur; 03-28-2012 at 15:28.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    I was just struck by something that made me chuckle if the law gets stopped and you have to create an ANHS is that not more socialist than the thing there roaring about stoping. It's nearly like that apocryphal quote about saving the village required destroying it


    Far as I can see this is all based on some spurious notion that Obamacare and Obama himself is gubmint socialism/communism/facism <insert your favoured meme here> and not actually on how to help people get better when there sick.

    To tell you the truth there is votes in sick people so I never cannot understand why you have waited until now for even this half hearted attempt.

    It must have summit to do with young people mainly working for older people cos they have assets, if younger people are less burdened due to an ANHS then older people lose a source of revenue.
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  15. #45
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    I want to see the court reject the federal governments ability to abuse the commerce clause without limit.im in favore of a mandate, but at the state level. I want to see a weakened federal government, but im not sure that the idea of some sort of mandate would be unconstitutional. Put a mandatory lein on paychecks for failure to pay medical bills if you are uninsured, but let the states work out what ismost effective.

    Id rather the court decide that the enumeration of powers allows questions of authority to default to states than have them reject a mandate out of hand
    That makes no sense how can it be legal to force people to buy/use this mandate at state level and if it's found to be illegal at federal level.
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  16. #46
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    It is interesting to me that some of the people supporting an NHS-style system are also some of the people talking up Ron Paul in the nomination thread
    A lot of us Ron Paul types support him for his libertarian social views. But there are just too many conflicts of interest with market based health care. When a person is seen as a customer instead of a patient, it's not going to end well.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
    That makes no sense how can it be legal to force people to buy/use this mandate at state level and if it's found to be illegal at federal level.
    10th Amendment.
    Last edited by drone; 03-28-2012 at 15:48.
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  17. #47
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    That makes no sense how can it be legal to force people to buy/use this mandate at state level and if it's found to be illegal at federal level.
    Tenth amendment of our constitution.

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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    It most certainly does not need amending.
    Of course it does rvg sure people ammend there constitutions all the time and thats including Americans.

    In fact here is a list of amendments currently going through the process now of being put into your constitution.

    In fact I am gonna lay a tenner in Paddy Power that the USA will ammend it's constitution several times in this century. I bet the odds will be terrible like say 1-1000 or something.
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  19. #49
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    It most certainly does not need amending. Obamacare's individual mandate provision is an abomination that needs to be struck down. If that results in the rest of the Obamacare going down, then so be it. I will not sacrifice my liberty so that the feds have an easier time balancing their books, there has to be another way. Obamacare does have a few good aspects, but those are totally overshadowed by the monstrosity of the individual mandate. It is wrong, it is unamerican, I can only hope that the SCOTUS does the right thing and strikes it down.
    YAY! It's unAmerican!

    How about, letting citizens die of perfectly treatable conditions just because they're poor is unAmerican.

    Try reading my post again. You are in this mess because your government can't force the States to provide essential services (like healthcare), so instead they try to get around it by forcing citizens to buy healthcare.

    If the US Constitions contained a clause such as, "The Federal Government has both a duty and a right to enact legislation for the provision of essetial services to citizens, either directly or by delegation to the States" you would have ANHS already.

    Instead, some of your politicians call basic civil provision "unAmerican" and you get unset, so it hasn't been passed.

    If you want a really intructive lesson I suggest you look at what the Right was saying over here about the NHS Bill when it was going through parliament, and what doctors were saying, popular it was not. It was rammed through because the Labour Government of the day understood it was necessary and refused to back down.
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  20. #50
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Nice conjob there lads they can blame the federal gubmint for Obamacare and as a result harvest votes, then they can bring in Perrycare which ends up being the same anyway.

    naturally the cost then most likely ends up becoming a federal one which they can also rail against as unfair taxes resulting in more votes.

    I am intrigued by this tenth amendment if it's found illegal at federal is it not by definition something the federal government should proscribe at state level.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 03-28-2012 at 16:06.
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  21. #51
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    I am intrigued by this tenth amendment if it's found illegal at federal is it not by definition something the federal government should proscribe at state level.
    The Constitution is meant to outline the limits of federal power, the 10th amendment specifies this clearly. If the Constitution does not give a power to the feds, that power belongs to either the states or the people.

    There are many ways the federal government has gotten around this, usually through a combination of the interstate commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause. Social Security is an example of this, and if we are going to be forced into national health care I'd prefer that to be the model we follow.

    I would prefer a country without universal health care to one where the federal government can force me to buy stuff. Corporations are already helping themselves to the treasury, this would just cut out the middle man.
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  22. #52
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    The Constitution is meant to outline the limits of federal power, the 10th amendment specifies this clearly. If the Constitution does not give a power to the feds, that power belongs to either the states or the people.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    What does that mean nor prohibited by it to the states does this mean the Feds decide if it's applicable at state level? it certainly seems that way when I read it.

    How does the Federal government decide to proscribe something then, surely if it is unconstitutional then it is bad form to allow states to provide a federally unconstitutional whatever.

    Reading it a second time nor prohibited by it to the States seems to say if it's illegal in the constitution then it's prohibited at state too.

    I must say it's very confusing to an ordinary 5/8 on the street.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 03-28-2012 at 16:46.
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  23. #53
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Of course it does rvg sure people ammend there constitutions all the time and thats including Americans.

    In fact here is a list of amendments currently going through the process now of being put into your constitution.

    In fact I am gonna lay a tenner in Paddy Power that the USA will ammend it's constitution several times in this century. I bet the odds will be terrible like say 1-1000 or something.
    Ummmm...yes. I'm well aware of the fact that our constitution has been amended in the past. That doesn't mean we have to amend it so that Obamacare can be shoehorned into it.
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  24. #54
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    What does that mean nor prohibited by it to the states does this mean the Feds decide if it's applicable at state level?
    I believe that means powers specifically given to the Fed cannot be usurped by the states. In other words, Alabama cannot declare war on Serbia, because the power to declare war is given to Congress by the constitution. And so on and so forth.

  25. #55
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    YAY! It's unAmerican!
    How about, letting citizens die of perfectly treatable conditions just because they're poor is unAmerican.
    Nobody lets them die. They still go to the emergency rooms and get treatment just like anyone else would.

    Try reading my post again. You are in this mess because your government can't force the States to provide essential services (like healthcare), so instead they try to get around it by forcing citizens to buy healthcare.
    And I don't appreciate being forced by Uncle Sam to buy things.

    If the US Constitions contained a clause such as, "The Federal Government has both a duty and a right to enact legislation for the provision of essetial services to citizens, either directly or by delegation to the States" you would have ANHS already.
    If...

    Instead, some of your politicians call basic civil provision "unAmerican" and you get unset, so it hasn't been passed.

    If you want a really intructive lesson I suggest you look at what the Right was saying over here about the NHS Bill when it was going through parliament, and what doctors were saying, popular it was not. It was rammed through because the Labour Government of the day understood it was necessary and refused to back down.
    I did listen to what they said and I quite honestly do not care. I have no desire to sacrifice my liberty to federal beancounters.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  26. #56
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Nobody lets them die. They still go to the emergency rooms and get treatment just like anyone else would.
    Which means we are forcing the hospitals into a business arrangement with dying people. Which is a strange and un-libertarian way to do things, if you think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    I have no desire to sacrifice my liberty to federal beancounters.
    Try to get your way with your own health insurer, then tell me about how your liberty would be so much worse off. Again, a finite resource has infinite demand. Rationing has, does, and will occur. It's just a question of method.
    Last edited by Lemur; 03-28-2012 at 16:58.

  27. #57
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Which means we are forcing the hospitals into a business arrangement with dying people. Which is a strange and un-libertarian way to do things, if you think about it.
    Something's gotta give. To me individual liberty comes before anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Try to get your way with your own health insurer, then tell me about how your liberty would be so much worse off. Again, a finite resource has infinite demand. Rationing has, does, and will occur. It's just a question of method.
    If they don't play nice, I'll hire a competent ambulance chaser to go after them. They'll change their tune in a hurry.
    Last edited by rvg; 03-28-2012 at 17:07.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  28. #58
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Something's gotta give. To me individual liberty comes before anything else.
    So I have the liberty to dump toxic waste in my backgarden and therefore kill all my neighbours kids.

    naturally no one thinks they have that right so the common good obviously comes before individual liberty (or at least were so used to it now we no longer SEE it as a common good infringing on individual liberties)

    As I said earlier when we say something like I favour free market or individual liberty these are really political statements of how much common good we will bear not how much liberty we want.
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  29. #59
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare Going Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    no one thinks they have that right so the common good obviously comes before individual liberty
    Actually, balancing common good with individual liberty is a work-in-progress in most western nations. There's no 100% right way to do it.

    That said, healthcare will probably wind up being more common good than individual liberty when this all shakes out. If my little boy lemur turns blue and cannot breathe, I'm not going to shop around for the best price on an ER, or the best deal for a respiratory specialist. I just need him to start breathing again. I could go deeper into this, but suffice it to say that I do not believe healthcare can be made into a functioning market system, any more than national defense can.

    And I've yet to see any real-world example of healthcare functioning as a market, which is the most damning evidence of all. Theories, slogans and hypotheticals are all well and good, but show me empirical examples, please. You would think that would be the "conservative" position, were we using that word to mean what it means.
    Last edited by Lemur; 03-28-2012 at 17:13.

  30. #60
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    So I have the liberty to dump toxic waste in my backgarden and therefore kill all my neighbours kids.

    naturally no one thinks they have that right so the common good obviously comes before individual liberty (or at least were so used to it now we no longer SEE it as a common good infringing on individual liberties)

    As I said earlier when we say something like I favour free market or individual liberty these are really political statements of how much common good we will bear not how much liberty we want.
    Your liberty stops where my liberty begins. Specifically, my liberty to breathe clean air trumps your liberty to dump toxic waste in your backyard. Same reason why driving drunk is an infraction: it interferes with my liberty to drive in safe conditions.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

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