Merkel Is Getting Me All Hot And Bothered

[drone]

OK, let's try this another way.

What, in your opinion, does the average southerner want or expect from non-southerners in regards to moving toward true and complete reconciliation? This can be words or actions. Please be very specific, these need to be concrete, actionable things, not vague or ephemeral.

Since when has the discussion been about Southern reconciliation? That ship has sailed. The point is that Northerners don't understand what being occupied is like, and can't comprehend why Southerners would feel the way they do, or how the Welsh feel about the English, etc.. Who was right, who was wrong, it doesn't matter, you pounding home the "South was evil" point is condescending in the same way an Englishman telling a Scot that he's better off now. It may be true, but do you think it makes the Scot feel peachy?

[rvg]

To you it is self evident that the Union should decide whether slavery was legal, to the Southern States this was obviously a reserved Right. It isn't about the Right to own slaves, it's about who has the Right to grant you the Right.

Antebellum U.S. government did not in any way infringe upon the right of the southern states to maintain the institution of slavery. By the time the Emancipation Proclamation was signed time for talk had passed.

[gaelic cowboy]

Then we're talking past each other.

Take Ireland it is not that the English will have to do anything to help us move from a post colonial to a truly free mindset, it is the Irish that have to come to terms with what happened to them. Our nation was formed by continual tragedy and by a sucessful resistance in order to achieve freedom, hence PVC is naturally incapable of understanding why I wouldnt shout for England if Ireland went out early this summer in Poland/Ukraine.

To the Englishman this question is settled and he has moved on (it wasnt really a big part of his mindset anyway) but for us it is merely the start of the journey of who and what we will become due to freedom we have achieved.

Therefore it's not the Northern Unitied States that has to do anything it is the South that will have to work through it's own culture, beliefs etc etc to eventually come to terms with what happened and what they did.

[Strike For The South]

Antebellum U.S. government did not in any way infringe upon the right of the southern states to maintain the institution of slavery. By the time the Emancipation Proclamation was signed time for talk had passed.

Incorrect, would you like to spin the wheel again?

To you it is self evident that the Union should decide whether slavery was legal, to the Southern States this was obviously a reserved Right. It isn't about the Right to own slaves, it's about who has the Right to grant you the Right.

I tend to agree with this bit

[rvg]

Our nation was formed by continual tragedy and by a sucessful resistance in order to achieve freedom, hence PVC is naturally incapable of understanding why I wouldnt shout for England if Ireland went out early this summer in Poland/Ukraine.

How about Scotland? Would your root for Scotland?

[gaelic cowboy]

How about Scotland? Would your root for Scotland?

Indeed I would but that has as much to do with supporting the little guy or the underdog as it does sticking it to the English.

Plus there is a kinship with Scotland that even though they had a religious reformation and occupied parts of Ulster we would still have more in common with them than we do England.

[Whacker]

I told you that you were confused.

This isn't a question for rational debate, as I indicated at least a page back.

The fact that you don't "get" it strongly suggests I am right and you have no history as we in Europe understand it. If you did, I wouldn't have to try to explain it to you.

Let me try something else, you said the war was about the Social development of the "United States", but you ttok for granted that everyone would read "United States" and not "United States".

To you it is self evident that the Union should decide whether slavery was legal, to the Southern States this was obviously a reserved Right. It isn't about the Right to own slaves, it's about who has the Right to grant you the Right.

My response is the same, I think you're the one who's confused.

For the record the statement about "understanding history like we do in Europe" is that "we r old skool" mentality that Americans are so sick and tired of, and why you've been getting the responses from others like you have. We have our own collective history from the founding of our nation to before, up to now. Just because it doesn't stretch back thousands of years doesn't make it any less meaningful or comprehensive, or give us less perspective. In that regard, Europeans do need to get over themselves.

To the rest of it, I've been getting what you've said. I don't think you get it. The notion of southern "independence", or anything whatsoever that directly states or implies that the south is a separate entity from the rest of the US is flat out rejected. Any discussions along those lines or with that as a basis are pointless and will go nowhere. For the record, in the discussions I have had with deep southerners have never gone along these lines. I think you understand the whole North/South Civil War situation as well as I understand the England/Wales/Scotland situation. In that regard, "I guess you Europeans will never understand the concept and history behind the Civil War like we Americans do."

[rvg]

Indeed I would but that has as much to do with supporting the little guy or the underdog as it does sticking it to the English.
Plus there is a kinship with Scotland that even though they had a religious reformation and occupied parts of Ulster we would still have more in common with them than we do England.

So, would it be fair to say that you have a problem with England, but not with Britain as a whole?

[Strike For The South]

I think he's being intentionally obtuse

Few, if any southeners would call for an actual secession and creation of a Neo-Confederacy

The (small) push is for a massive devolution towards states rights

The large portion of Southeners whom still stoke the lost cause embers are contraians. Happy to be the foil of the mainstream "yankee" culture. In this day and age nearly apolitical. There is no true and serious movement. Unlike Scotland we wont be voting on independence anytime soon.

A distiniction that needs to be made here. The UK started seperate and came to. The US started together and came apart

[Whacker]

The point is that Northerners don't understand what being occupied is like, and can't comprehend why Southerners would feel the way they do, or how the Welsh feel about the English, etc..

Welsh vs English was a totally different situation. I wouldn't know what it feels like to be in jail, because I've never done anything that would merit me going to jail. Sorry if that's harsh, the truth can be.

Who was right, who was wrong, it doesn't matter, you pounding home the "South was evil" point is condescending in the same way an Englishman telling a Scot that he's better off now. It may be true, but do you think it makes the Scot feel peachy?

England vs Scotland is likewise completely different. As for the whole "South was evil" point being "pounded home", that's not how the history books in school read. Pounding it home would be near propaganda-ish levels of reciting every single one of the South's wrongs and associated demonizing. That's not how it is, it's more of a factual retelling of the factors that lead up to it, what occurred at a really, really high level, and the outcome. No demonizing of either side. For the record, this is generally the same response I've had in the past when discussing this aspect of history with other southerners, so the message is consistent.

If the average southerner is still bitter about history being a reminder of their our ancestor's faults, then ... tough. History is taught that we should not repeat the mistakes of the past, and some of it is embarrassing. Don't know what else to say, except that I don't agree whatsoever that the "South is evil" is the overriding message and portrayal taught in the school rooms. Most of my opinions on this were formed much later in life after more reading and research.

[gaelic cowboy]

It isn't about the Right to own slaves, it's about who has the Right to grant you the Right.

Indeed and guess who helped form Southern culture along with other immigrant groupings why Scots and Ulster Scots people these would be a people who had a long history of defiance on various questions of "Rights"

Of course plenty of them fought on the Northern side too probably more in fact but then they were on the winning side, in war there is no substitute for victory. It's no wonder that today the South still feels even today some slight resentment, as I said it takes a long time to remove such ideas from any culture.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Take Ireland it is not that the English will have to do anything to help us move from a post colonial to a truly free mindset, it is the Irish that have to come to terms with what happened to them. Our nation was formed by continual tragedy and by a sucessful resistance in order to achieve freedom, hence PVC is naturally incapable of understanding why I wouldnt shout for England if Ireland went out early this summer in Poland/Ukraine.

To the Englishman this question is settled and he has moved on (it wasnt really a big part of his mindset anyway) but for us it is merely the start of the journey of who and what we will become due to freedom we have achieved.

Therefore it's not the Northern Unitied States that has to do anything it is the South that will have to work through it's own culture, beliefs etc etc to eventually come to terms with what happened and what they did.

To clarify, I do get it, it just makes me sad.

Sad, though, that our ancestors couldn't find a better way to work out how Ireland and the rest of the British Isles fit together.

I also find it difficult to accept on an emotional level even though I understand it intellectually, and appreciate the Irish viewpoint.

Actually, thinking about it, I probably find it somewhat upsetting because I'm aware Irish independence is more to do with failings in London that anything else - that probably explains the general English unwillingness to examine the issue too.

[gaelic cowboy]

So, would it be fair to say that you have a problem with England, but not with Britain as a whole?

Eh I dont have a problem with England at all I just wouldnt feel right cheering for them thats all, it would basically be too much and really would be too soon.

[Whacker]

I think he's being intentionally obtuse

Moi?

[Whacker]

Therefore it's not the Northern Unitied States that has to do anything it is the South that will have to work through it's own culture, beliefs etc etc to eventually come to terms with what happened and what they did.

Aye, that's the conclusion I came to ages ago.

[rvg]

Sad, though, that our ancestors couldn't find a better way to work out how Ireland and the rest of the British Isles fit together.

But that was then. What's the on it of focusing on it today?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Welsh vs English was a totally different situation. I wouldn't know what it feels like to be in jail, because I've never done anything that would merit me going to jail. Sorry if that's harsh, the truth can be.



England vs Scotland is likewise completely different. As for the whole "South was evil" point being "pounded home", that's not how the history books in school read. Pounding it home would be near propaganda-ish levels of reciting every single one of the South's wrongs and associated demonizing. That's not how it is, it's more of a factual retelling of the factors that lead up to it, what occurred at a really, really high level, and the outcome. No demonizing of either side. For the record, this is generally the same response I've had in the past when discussing this aspect of history with other southerners, so the message is consistent.

If the average southerner is still bitter about history being a reminder of their our ancestor's faults, then ... tough. History is taught that we should not repeat the mistakes of the past, and some of it is embarrassing. Don't know what else to say, except that I don't agree whatsoever that the "South is evil" is the overriding message and portrayal taught in the school rooms. Most of my opinions on this were formed much later in life after more reading and research.

That bold bit, that's the problem - what you wrote, despite there being Southerners here.

As to the rest, the Welsh/Irish/Scots/Cornish/Manx situation are all different, but despite that they all feel pretty much the same, a feeling they share with the Bretons, Basques, Catalans, and others.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But that was then. What's the on it of focusing on it today?

It's part of our history, which makes it part of our national (English) psyche - and that's why we keep repeating the same mistakes.

[rvg]

It's part of our history, which makes it part of our national (English) psyche - and that's why we keep repeating the same mistakes.

It just seems irrational, sorta like holding modern Germany accountable for what Hitler once did. Makes no sense.

[Whacker]

That bold bit, that's the problem - what you wrote, despite there being Southerners here.

As to the rest, the Welsh/Irish/Scots/Cornish/Manx situation are all different, but despite that they all feel pretty much the same, a feeling they share with the Bretons, Basques, Catalans, and others.

Hence why I was trying to coax drone's perspective out of him. Each southerner's feelings are similar but unique in some regards.

As to the first bit, it is what it is. We aren't going to sugarcoat things. I can own up to the fact that my ancestors fought on the wrong side. That doesn't make me, drone, or anyone else here responsible for the actions of our fathers or forefathers.

[Whacker]

It just seems irrational, sorta like holding modern Germany accountable for what Hitler once did. Makes no sense.

This. It's pretty much time for the world to move past what happened during WWII, the generation that was generally responsible for it has since died, and the generation that fought it is dying out rapidly and mostly gone.

[gaelic cowboy]

To clarify, I do get it, it just makes me sad.

Sad, though, that our ancestors couldn't find a better way to work out how Ireland and the rest of the British Isles fit together.

I also find it difficult to accept on an emotional level even though I understand it intellectually, and appreciate the Irish viewpoint.

Actually, thinking about it, I probably find it somewhat upsetting because I'm aware Irish independence is more to do with failings in London that anything else - that probably explains the general English unwillingness to examine the issue too.

One day possibly I do get the feeling that things are begingin to change but it is still to soon for me at least(mad as that sounds) When you come to a match an international match in Ireland we only need too separate people because it's the rules of the various international bodies, not because we will kill the opposing fans over percieved slights(excepting the North everything is different there)

Bother has only ever being caused (yet) by hooligans coming into Ireland and I expect that will continue.

I have been at World Cup matches where English people cheered us on and they loved every minute of the match, technically it was cos we were playing Germany though. I'm telling you I never seen a happier racist football hooligan as I did that night in Ibaraki, he nearly fell of the upper tier so he did. Also I have actually sang rebels songs at family gathereings in england in front of English people and they loved every minute of it, they knew that the atmosphere was one of celebration and rememberance not one of anger.

Irish people will one day root for England if were not playing ourselves, I know this to be ultimately a truth but we will always savour the odd victory we get over yous lot

[gaelic cowboy]

It just seems irrational, sorta like holding modern Germany accountable for what Hitler once did. Makes no sense.

But what Hitler did still does affect Germans today essentially the World does have not to forgive them anything instead it is they themselves who must work through it.

Germany has basically gone from expansionism to a trend of pacifism that borders almost on the neurotic.

[rvg]

But what Hitler did still does affect Germans today essentially the World does have not to forgive them anything instead it is they themselves who must work through it.

There's hardly anyone left to forgive. The direct participants are frail old men who will be dead within the next couple of decades, and the new generation has nothing to apologize for, just like the new generation in, say, France has nothing to forgive for. It's not our war, not our conflict, not our place to assign guilt or to forgive.

[gaelic cowboy]

There's hardly anyone left to forgive. The direct participants are frail old men who will be dead within the next couple of decades, and the new generation has nothing to apologize for, just like the new generation in, say, France has nothing to forgive for. It's not our war, not our conflict, not our place to assign guilt or to forgive.

I thnk were missing each other ina dark tunnel here in reality.

Germanys mindset is influenced by WW1 the Recession and WW2 there is no need in the wide earthly world for anyone to be even alive who remembers this for them to be shaped by it.

Americans are shaped by ideas of freedom from freedom of expansion, movement, conscience or choice etc etc blah blah this is purely because America is still a big place with plenty room left in it even today. Various terrorists groups and whatnot will be easily forgotten in America because they were not the foundation of the American worldview to begin with.

[rvg]

I thnk were missing each other ina dark tunnel here in reality.

Germanys mindset is influenced by WW1 the Recession and WW2 there is no need in the wide earthly world for anyone to be even alive who remembers this for them to be shaped by it.

Americans are shaped by ideas of freedom from freedom of expansion, movement, conscience or choice etc etc blah blah this is purely because America is still a big place with plenty room left in it even today. Various terrorists groups and whatnot will be easily forgotten in America because they were not the foundation of the American worldview to begin with.

I'm not convinced that size has anything to do with this. I mean, look at Russia, they have plenty of land, far fewer people than we do, yet suffer from the same issues as the rest of Europe.

[gaelic cowboy]

I'm not convinced that size has anything to do with this. I mean, look at Russia, they have plenty of land, far fewer people than we do, yet suffer from the same issues as the rest of Europe.

Russia never has had any of the advantages that the USA ever did.

Russian rivers flow the wrong way for trade, her agricultural areas while good are far from it's markets.
Much of the expanse has no one in it so effectively Russians live in a big field with the front and back gate open for anyone to walk in.

You could say Russia is obssesed with getting buffers to protect itself or at least why the elite are obssesed with that idea.

To be honest I dont know enough about Russian character to argue this, but we all see American character on telly everyday. Since your telly is how you as Americans see yourselves it's easy pick up on a few traits that you all might have.

An yes I am aware thats a fictional version of American character but it is still influenced by actual American traits.

[drone]

Hence why I was trying to coax drone's perspective out of him. Each southerner's feelings are similar but unique in some regards.

As to the first bit, it is what it is. We aren't going to sugarcoat things. I can own up to the fact that my ancestors fought on the wrong side. That doesn't make me, drone, or anyone else here responsible for the actions of our fathers or forefathers.

My perspective is atypical, I'm probably a bit more rational about it than most Southerners. I know the history, and my family's role in it, and have pretty much come to the conclusion that the South got what it deserved. The North probably could have handled things better both before and after, but what's done is done. To paraphrase a famous Jedi master, "I don't hate the Yankees, they're just " I dislike the North, but for reasons completely unrelated to the war.

I do understand the mindset however, which is apparently something that I'm not getting across.

[rvg]

Russia never has had any of the advantages that the USA ever did.
Russian rivers flow the wrong way for trade, her agricultural areas while good are far from it's markets.

But we have to cross an ocean to do any kind of serious trading.

Much of the expanse has no one in it so effectively Russians live in a big field with the front and back gate open for anyone to walk in. You could say that is why Russin is obssesed with obtaining buffers to protect itself or at the very least why the elite are obssesed with that.

Canada has similar disadvantages, but not the same issues.

[gaelic cowboy]

But we have to cross an ocean to do any kind of serious trading.

All maritime powers are richer than land powers, to trade across land is expensive.

Thats why Ireland has potential for a large GDP per person despite her size.

Canada has similar disadvantages, but not the same issues.

But crucially Canada real security defense wise due to the Empire and had shared cultural mores with America. Later Canada orientated it's trade to integration with the USA to overcome the disadvantage of effectively being two islands and of course she shares the Atlantic and Pacfic with you making trade from either coastline easier.

Russia does not even come close to having the lesser advantages of Canada never mind America.