3.4 EDU - SUGGESTIONS

[Vlixes]

I just looked at the Sweboz' javelin range and their javelin attack and thought they didn't line up well.

Maybe at least Worgozez must keep it.

[Arjos]

If that's true, then is incoherent with so many units using longswords in the game. Just take a look at the Sweboz roster.

Swebozez aren't gallic...
And even then, swords among them should be extremely rare...

It's quite absurd that the best infantry of an army must battle with such a non-shock non-line-inf weapon.

Arjos, Solduros etc aren't supposed to be shock infantry, that you prefer the sword in close-quarters is one thing, how they fought in history is another...
The engine is indeed broken, but only swords is worse imo...

How can the sweboz bring 4 armored cavalry? Tier system strictly limits them to two.

Ok, now Celto-Germanic cav with chest-plates are naked...

[Kival]

also kival i was also quite shocked that kopis didnt have ap anymore, but after playing with the edu for a while now i agree with it quite happily, AP kopis was taken out for a reason, i dont know what it was....but it seems to be good so we should stick with it

And what gives you the idea it is good?

[gamegeek2]

And what gives you the idea it is good?

What historical precedent is there for a sword dealing large amounts of blunt damage through plate?

Come to think of it, maybe falcatas should lose AP as well...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

What historical precedent is there for a sword dealing large amounts of blunt damage through plate?

Come to think of it, maybe falcatas should lose AP as well...

Well because the center of gravity for the sword would be located nearer to the top because the blade broadens as it is expanding from the pommel. The forward curve of the sword magnifies this, though not as greatly as an axe.

Arjos, a Sweboz army with that much armor isn't viable based on the costs of the units in question. 2 Germanic Heavy cav, 2 Celto-Germanic Cavalry, 4 each of the bodyguards and the retainer infantry leaves you with 6276 mnai and 8 slots to fill. Unless you plan on using the remaining slots on slingers and archers/levy spears, there is no way this army works in MP where it would simply be overrun. A much more realistic Sweboz army which I prefer to use takes 2 each of the retainer infantry and bodyguards and then perhaps a unit or two of heavy cavalry to allow for the cost-effective Dugundiz and various sword units to be used. Yes the Sweboz have armor, but it is very expensive.

[Kival]

Also we don't have plate armour in the medievel sence here. Mostly chainmail and some cuirasses. Also kopis and falcata were made for the purpose of dealing damange against armoured enemies. Are we just going to ignore that fact now? It was also one of the interesting parts of EB that different swordwielding units had different purposes, now we just have longswords - which are the best swords - and other swords who are at best pseudo-longswords statwise or obviously inferior like shortswords.

[NacroxNicke]

Nevermind.

[vartan]

Must I really summon a physicist up in this to resolve the issue?

[Vlixes]

Swebozez aren't gallic...
And even then, swords among them should be extremely rare...

That's irrlevant for the point argued. Those units are bugged, and in a way they're handicaped and incoherent with the actual roster of Sweboz.

Arjos, Solduros etc aren't supposed to be shock infantry, that you prefer the sword in close-quarters is one thing, how they fought in history is another...
The engine is indeed broken, but only swords is worse imo...

It's not my opinion, it's a fact that longswords are much more effective in close quarters. In this composition of Sweboz is incoherent that such superior units must use such an inferior weapon.

[Arjos]

In this composition of Sweboz is incoherent that such superior units must use such an inferior weapon.

The point is that the spear was their main weapon...
Removing it is like saying: bugger the sarissa, just give xiphos to the phalangitai...

The engine is what it is, you just have to deal with it...

[Vlixes]

The point is that the spear was their main weapon...
Removing it is like saying: bugger the sarissa, just give xiphos to the phalangitai...

Evidence for that? Why is it then secondary an not primary weapon? I really doubt that a barbarian heavy inf will carry spears and not swords as primary weapon. The spear is a defensive weapon compared with the sword. And is not the same. Phalanxes have sarissa as primary and determinant weapon, it defines the functionality of the unit. Spear has not the same role for a germanic heavy inf. And, if you have evidence on the use of spears as primary weapon, then you must know what was the role of this handicaped heavy inf, do you?

The engine is what it is, you just have to deal with it...

Quite like saying: the error is there and I've not intention of fixing it.

[NacroxNicke]

Well, several sources from the Dark Ages show how Angle and Saxon royal units used spears as main weapons instead of seaxs, spathas or longswords.

Why? well, because the spear if properly used can have better flexibility on where to attack, since a fast thrust is far more difficult to block with a shield than a slashing attack

The problem is that we compare the level of skill of a levy using a spear with an experienced veteran using a spear. Also, the pike is far less agile than the spear, and so is the sarissa compared with a spear

We have to take in account that a spear from the Gallics tribes will be different of a spear crafted from the Germanic people, or one crafted by the greeks, as they change between lenghts and stuff.

Also, the use of longswords is very chaotic in a densed formation, as you need space to make slashing attack with enough power to cut efficiently, and they are slower too

[vartan]

I'm liking how you all are engaging in very good discussion, but there are a couple of things to mention.

Quite like saying: the error is there and I've not intention of fixing it.

If there are suspicions regarding what weapons the units in EB carry, take it up with the people who developed the game. As far as the engine goes, if you did not previously know that there are certain inherent limitations that result in problems that are not resolvable, do not worry. I guarantee that there will always be someone who will let you know: "such and such a problem is a result of the engine, and we can't do much about it." And this much is true.

But honestly, about the AP on the kopis and falcata: really guys? Are you really going to melt through ancient plate armor or helmets like you're cutting through butter? You'd basically be only counting half of the enemy's armor value. That's much more dangerous balancing-wise than simply adding a couple of attack points, say, for the blunt damage, or whatever you'd like to imagine. Just food for thought.

[Vlixes]

I'm liking how you all are engaging in very good discussion, but there are a couple of things to mention.



If there are suspicions regarding what weapons the units in EB carry, take it up with the people who developed the game. As far as the engine goes, if you did not previously know that there are certain inherent limitations that result in problems that are not resolvable, do not worry. I guarantee that there will always be someone who will let you know: "such and such a problem is a result of the engine, and we can't do much about it." And this much is true.

Hum, Arjos is stating that "spear is the main weapon", so he must have evidence of that. I don't see any problem in asking for a prove. The use of spear by a heavy unit such as those of Sweboz is, for me, counterintuitive.
And, since I dont see the reason, I take the conclusion of "get with it" as an evasion of the problem. At least you prove otherwise.

[-Stormrage-]

Man, good thing i got nothing to do with those barbarians.

[Vlixes]

Hum, Arjos is stating that "spear is the main weapon", so he must have evidence of that. I don't see any problem in asking for a prove. The use of spear by a heavy unit such as those of Sweboz is, for me, counterintuitive.
And, since I dont see the reason, I take the conclusion of "get with it" as an evasion of the problem. At least you prove otherwise.

Ok forget all that. Robin was the one who could explain it to me...

[Lazy O]

Our ancient Plate Armor is not Medieval Brigandines, Mail and Plates, Yushmans or Gothic Full plate, it is BRONZE , while it does offer good protection, an axe, falcata or mace will do alot of damage to the person underneath and probably make a decent dent in it if not break it .

[Arjos]

But honestly, about the AP on the kopis and falcata: really guys? Are you really going to melt through ancient plate armor or helmets like you're cutting through butter? You'd basically be only counting half of the enemy's armor value. That's much more dangerous balancing-wise than simply adding a couple of attack points, say, for the blunt damage, or whatever you'd like to imagine. Just food for thought.

Modern reproductions and analysis of the weight distribution in the blade, show that those weapons were capable of dealing a considerable g-force shock and that power is concentrated on a limited part of the blade: it works just like an axe...

[gamegeek2]

OK, this means we should horribly devalue the weapon versus less armored infantry why?

[Lazy O]

How would it be depowered vs less armoured infantry by giving it ap back?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Because you would have to lower lethality back to something around 0.13. The sword can't be 0.24 lethality and be ap. Only Guild Warriors get that treatment. :p

There is no perfect solution to this problem. The units with kopides are still plenty effective against most units, the only problem is against cataphracts, were the high lethality but lack of ap really kills them.

[Arjos]

What about a slighty higher leathality than axes, AP, but less attack values since it has only one cutting edge and isn't particularly used to stab?

[antisocialmunky]

Well I would just stat them as a normal sword and give them AP and increase armor values all around to compensate for higher AP attack values across the board. This would of course make heavily armored units melt through levies like butter but you can give units with low armor a little extra defense to compensate for manuverability. That'd be more inline with reality too.

[Kival]

OK, this means we should horribly devalue the weapon versus less armored infantry why?

Why do you think kopis is (much) better against unarmoured opponents than an e.g. an axe? At the moment they just seem to be bad longswords, or did you increase attack to compensate the malus in lethality compared to longswords?

What about a slighty higher leathality than axes, AP, but less attack values since it has only one cutting edge and isn't particularly used to stab?

I'd actually prefer less lethality than axes, Ap but MORE attack since they are less head-heavy.

[The Celtic Viking]

At the moment they just seem to be bad longswords, or did you increase attack to compensate the malus in lethality compared to longswords?

The kopis is cheaper than the longsword, isn't it?

[Arjos]

Whichever combo is fine for me, as long as they gain AP as they should...

[Kival]

The kopis is cheaper than the longsword, isn't it?

That seems wrong to me too, though.

[vartan]

One does always wish the game came with more modifiers than an AP toggle, lethality, and attack value. I always thought weapons technology was more complicated than that, physically speaking.

[Arjos]

I would like to propose these Gallic rosters, because:

- Two copy factions are sily and two units aren't enough.
- They represent quite different groups and had contact with different ethnes.

Changes from the current roster are bolded.

Aedui:

Kluddacorii - Factional.
Bagaudas - Factional.
Teceitos - Factional.
Botroas - Factional.
Lugoae - Factional.
Gaisolitho Aljod - Mercenary: aeduian power never reached the Rhine, they were opposed by the Sequanoi.
Boii Cingetos - Factional: after the helvetian migration, Bouiroi settled in aeduian territory and joined the confederacy.
Gaeroas - Factional: they need to be restated as skirmishers.
Uirodusios - Factional.
Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai - Mercenary.
Gaelaiche - Factional.
Massaliotai Hoplitai - Mercenary.
Dugundiz - Mercenary.
Milnaht - Factional.
Mori Gaesum - Factional.
Pictone Neitos - Mercenary.
Dunaminaca - Mercenary.
Neitos - Factional.
Gaesatae - Factional.
Solduros - Factional.
Sphendonetai - Mercenary.
Iaosatae - Factional.
Toxotai - Mercenary.
Sotaroas - Factional.
Akontistai - Mercenary.
Clona Gosnasio - Mercenary.
Brihentin - Factional.
Cidainh - Factional: while yes we lack written sources for battles north of the Alps in the 3rd century BC, there still were chariots at Telamon (some could've even come from Transalpina) and in the late 2nd century BC we have Uerrix setting out on chariots to distribute wealth among their subjects; these, unlike the eastern counterparts, have always been moving platforms and status symbols.
Taramonnos - Factional.
Cantabrae Eponereidam - Mercenary.
Leuce Epos - Factional.
Noricene Gaecori - Mercenary: the Norikoi were highly independent.
Batacorii - Factional.
Enoci Curoas - Factional.
Golberi Curoas - Factional.
Appea Gaedotos - Mercenary.
Caturige Gaedann - Factional.
Gaemile Liguriae - Mercenary.
Tekastos - Mercenary.
Callaecae Roscaithrera - Mercenary.
Dreugulōzez Brunjādoi - Mercenary.
Carnute Cingetos - Factional.
Dreugulōzez Exworeidondijoi - Mercenary.
Marxolitho Wolxiskod - Mercenary.
Remi Marepos - Factional.
Curepos - Factional.
Liguriae Epos - Mercenary.

Arverni:

Kluddacorii - Factional.
Bagaudas - Factional.
Teceitos - Factional.
Botroas - Factional.
Lugoae - Factional.
Gaisolitho Aljod - Factional.
Boii Cingetos - Factional: following the invasion of the Balkans, Uolkai moved to Tolosa, where an earlier migration from the Danube already settled, these tribes were all part of the greater confederacy living in Bohemia.
Gaeroas - Factional: they need to be restated as skirmishers.
Uirodusios - Factional.
Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai - Factional: the land route to Hispania, was secured with a war in 123 BC; Narbonensis (formerly under the Aruernoi) became a roman province.
Gaelaiche - Factional.
Massaliotai Hoplitai - Mercenary.
Dugundiz - Mercenary.
Milnaht - Mercenary: Belgae never sided with the Aruernoi-Sequanoi alliance, they fought them.
Mori Gaesum - Factional.
Pictone Neitos - Mercenary.
Dunaminaca - Mercenary.
Neitos - Factional.
Gaesatae - Factional.
Solduros - Factional.
Sphendonetai - Mercenary.
Iaosatae - Factional.
Toxotai - Mercenary.
Sotaroas - Factional.
Akontistai - Mercenary.
Clona Gosnasio - Factional: under Luernios, the Aruernoi controlled most tribes from the Atlantic to the Rhine, I'd argue the Clona Gosnasio could represent some of the aquitanian population, under arvernian dominance.
Brihentin - Factional.
Cidainh - Factional: while yes we lack written sources for battles north of the Alps in the 3rd century BC, there still were chariots at Telamon (some could've even come from Transalpina) and in the late 2nd century BC we have Uerrix setting out on chariots to distribute wealth among their subjects; these, unlike the eastern counterparts, have always been moving platforms and status symbols.
Taramonnos - Mercenary: see Milnaht.
Cantabrae Eponereidam - Mercenary.
Leuce Epos - Factional.
Noricene Gaecori - Mercenary: the Norikoi were highly independent.
Batacorii - Mercenary: see Milnaht.
Enoci Curoas - Factional.
Golberi Curoas - Factional.
Appea Gaedotos - Factional: see Luernios, but consider alpine tribes like the Allobroges.
Caturige Gaedann - Factional.
Gaemile Liguriae - Mercenary.
Tekastos - Factional: similar to Appea Gaedotos.
Callaecae Roscaithrera - Mercenary.
Dreugulōzez Brunjādoi - Mercenary.
Arjos - Factional.
Dreugulōzez Exworeidondijoi - Mercenary.
Marxolitho Wolxiskod - Factional: see Luernios, they would be members of the tribes along the Rhine.
Remi Marepos - Mercenary: see Milnaht.
Curepos - Factional.
Liguriae Epos - Mercenary.

I posted all the units in order to spot possible issues with these modifications to the roster.
In a nutshell, with these rosters the Aedui will be more northern gallic and belgic oriented and the Arverni more southern gallic and alpine oriented.

[Kival]

I like it though it works mostly against Aedui :p.