Woman who lied about rape asks for 'bygones to be bygones'

[Kadagar_AV]

What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"?

No, really.

What does this say about the system at large, when a innocent guy readily accepts 5 years in jail because the alternative could be worse?

This is not about this particular case, it is of course about the system at large.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Phillips; murderers, rapists, child molesters, and traitors in some instances all deserve to die.

I do not believe so.

No amount of punishment will undo a crime that has been done, a dead man can neither feel remorse nor make restitution - and more importantly, someone has to have the task of killing them.

I killed a sheep once - worst bloody thing I ever did, I can't imagine killing a person would be any easier, no matter what they had done.

After all, what's the difference between a murderer and a executioner especially if, as in the UK, many of the people executed are subsequently found to be innocent. I think the last three people executed here in the 60's have since been aquitted.

[rajpoot]

I do not believe so.

No amount of punishment will undo a crime that has been done, a dead man can neither feel remorse nor make restitution - and more importantly, someone has to have the task of killing them.

I think this has moved into 'whether or not capital punishment is justified' territory.

When a criminal is given death sentence, it serves more than one purpose. It's done so that others who might wander onto a similar path in the future think twice before doing it.
It also provides some measure of contentment/closure to the victim's family.
And lastly it is a punishment for the accused. That their crime was so grievous that they no longer deserves to live amongst people.

I am not saying death sentences should be passed lightly. But they have an important part to play in justice. Also such punishments are given only after much deliberation because of the reasons you mention.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think this has moved into 'whether or not capital punishment is justified' territory.

When a criminal is given death sentence, it serves more than one purpose. It's done so that others who might wander onto a similar path in the future think twice before doing it.
It also provides some measure of contentment/closure to the victim's family.
And lastly it is a punishment for the accused. That their crime was so grievous that they no longer deserves to live amongst people.

I am not saying death sentences should be passed lightly. But they have an important part to play in justice. Also such punishments are given only after much deliberation because of the reasons you mention.

I have heard this argument before - but I don't believe a word of it.

Despite capital punishment in the US, and elsewhere, people still commit murders. There are more murders in New York city every year than London, sometimes double, despite capital punishment. It is therefore not an effective deterrent because people who commit murderes just don't think in terms of deterrent.

Closure for the family - Perhaps, but as a counterpoint to that someone must carry out the execution, and someone else must pass the sentence. Hanging is a skilled profession and our hangmen here were consumate professional and a sympathetic to their charges as they could be - more than one of them was also suicidal.

Finally punishment - there are two objections here. The first is that innocent men can, and will, be executed and then something as heinous as the original crime has been inflicted on them and their families by the state. Also, see point two. Secondly, there is something to be said for a poltical settlement which outlaws State sanctioned homocide.

Are you aware that there is no country in Western, Southern or Central Europe which uses capital punishment? We manage just fine.

[drone]

Despite capital punishment in the US, and elsewhere, people still commit murders. There are more murders in New York city every year than London, sometimes double, despite capital punishment. It is therefore not an effective deterrent because people who commit murderes just don't think in terms of deterrent.

You need a better comparison. The last execution in the state of New York was 1963. After the 1976 federal reinstatement, capital punishment in NY remained in hiatus until Gov. Pataki reinstated it in 1995, but no one was executed and it was judged unconstitutional (state) in 2004.

[Sir Moody]

while his comparison is off (even I know NYC hasn't executed anyone in decades) but the most important point is still totally valid

no matter how rigorous the legal system mistakes are made and innocent people are sent to jail - the Death sentence can and has been given to innocent people who are then "murdered" by the state for crimes they didn't commit - you only need to look at the case of Derek Bentley from the UK to see the flaws (and I am sure there are some cases from one of the states which does execute say Texas that our US friends would know of)

until we develop a method of 100% assessing guilt I will oppose any of the groups in the UK which are trying to bring the Death Penalty back (thankfully they don't have popular support) purely for that reason

[ajaxfetish]

What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"?

No, really.

What does this say about the system at large, when a innocent guy readily accepts 5 years in jail because the alternative could be worse?

This is not about this particular case, it is of course about the system at large.

I agree completely that this is the biggest problem in this case. The girl's behavior: big problem. The defense attorney's behavior: maybe a problem. The systemic issues that make justice so uncertain: huge problem.

Ajax

[drone]

while his comparison is off (even I know NYC hasn't executed anyone in decades) but the most important point is still totally valid

Not arguing the issue of wrongful convictions, but if he is going to argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, he needs to pick a jurisdiction that actually has the death penalty. Many of the high-density population centers in the US are in states with no death penalty: Detroit, DC, New York, Boston, Chicago. Worthless anectodal example: I live in the greater DC/Baltimore sprawl. DC has no death penalty, Maryland has currently suspended executions (and rarely used it anyway), while Virginia is second behind Texas in executions since the 1976 reinstatement. It's waaay better living on the Virginia side of the Potomac.

[Major Robert Dump]

After getting the experience of having a cop try to get me to plea to a lesser crime when in fact I never committed an initial crime, I understand this completely. As I sat there being grilled, I could not help but laugh to myself wondering how many mildly retarded people had copped to something because they thought the alternative was worse. Plea bargains -- especially ones involving one crook snithicng on the other -- are often unbelievable, where 2 guys equally guilty will have one get life and the other get 10 years.

Sorry to derail the thread, But Philipvs started it, I promise. Firstly, I did not "wish" anyone dead, I stated rather bluntly that were I the man, as I was getting buttraped in prison for raping underage girls that I would grow enough hatred to get out of jail and kill this woman. That is not wishing.

And second, wishing for something bad to happen to someone is not so bad as actually doing it. It's not like things like wishing and prayers actually work, because if they did I would have a vagina on my hand.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not arguing the issue of wrongful convictions, but if he is going to argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent, he needs to pick a jurisdiction that actually has the death penalty. Many of the high-density population centers in the US are in states with no death penalty: Detroit, DC, New York, Boston, Chicago. Worthless anectodal example: I live in the greater DC/Baltimore sprawl. DC has no death penalty, Maryland has currently suspended executions (and rarely used it anyway), while Virginia is second behind Texas in executions since the 1976 reinstatement. It's waaay better living on the Virginia side of the Potomac.

Los Angeles?

After getting the experience of having a cop try to get me to plea to a lesser crime when in fact I never committed an initial crime, I understand this completely. As I sat there being grilled, I could not help but laugh to myself wondering how many mildly retarded people had copped to something because they thought the alternative was worse. Plea bargains -- especially ones involving one crook snithicng on the other -- are often unbelievable, where 2 guys equally guilty will have one get life and the other get 10 years.

Sorry to derail the thread, But Philipvs started it, I promise. Firstly, I did not "wish" anyone dead, I stated rather bluntly that were I the man, as I was getting buttraped in prison for raping underage girls that I would grow enough hatred to get out of jail and kill this woman. That is not wishing.

And second, wishing for something bad to happen to someone is not so bad as actually doing it. It's not like things like wishing and prayers actually work, because if they did I would have a vagina on my hand.

I don't buy it - wanting someone dead is the worse part of actually killing them, the intent. What you are expressing is possibly the most harmful of all sentiments - the drive to kill.

[Shaka_Khan]

She never slept with him, apparently.

Also, a welfare mom paying the state back 1.5 lemons? Good one, that. Just dissolve her as a warning to the others.

Of course she wouldn't be able to pay the whole amount at one go. Just get back bit by bit. It could take decades and decades and decades, maybe a little less than a million months if she continues to be a jobless welfare mom, but that's part of the punishment.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sorry to say, but I am still befuddled with a minority guy accepting the charges because the juridical system would treat him more harsh if he didn't.

So again, how come this is not the major topic here?

[Major Robert Dump]

Edited, re-watched the video

he hoped for the best from the judge. If the cards are so stacked against him and even his lawyers are telling him he is screwed, then he may have abandoned all hope and just said "F it"

the dude had already been in a year when he finally got to trial. He probably didnt have a lot of hope at that point

[Centurion1]

La does not have the Death penalty Phillips the state of california hasn't executed anyone in decades. All this is throwing a bit of a wrench into your argument neh

[Kadagar_AV]

La does not have the Death penalty Phillips the state of california hasn't executed anyone in decades. All this is throwing a bit of a wrench into your argument neh

Why do you use battle school slang?

[Strike For The South]

Do you see the need for the men's rights movement yet?

PUH-leese

I have forgotten more about the MRM than you will ever learn.

The root of the problem is traditonal gender roles were shaken by the industrial revolution and were shattered by our post industrial society

We just need our law and culture to catch up with reality. Men and Women both have areas of life where it sucks to be a man or a woman

Do you people get it now or do I need to add colors?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

La does not have the Death penalty Phillips the state of california hasn't executed anyone in decades. All this is throwing a bit of a wrench into your argument neh

California and Texas have the same murder rate? http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murd...nd-state#MRord

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm


http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm

So... no deterent.

[drone]

California has the death penalty, and has more people on death row than any other state. According to wiki, they have executed 13 since the 1976 reinstatement, they apparently are not as keen on carrying out the punishment as they are with the sentencing of it. Typical Cali.

Edit-> Cali is reworking their chamber/process, executions suspended since 2006 until they get it right.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

California has the death penalty, and has more people on death row than any other state. According to wiki, they have executed 13 since the 1976 reinstatement, they apparently are not as keen on carrying out the punishment as they are with the sentencing of it. Typical Cali.

Edit-> Cali is reworking their chamber/process, executions suspended since 2006 until they get it right.

The index in New York State is 4.4 per 100,000, in Texas it's 5 - how's that for demonstrating no deterrent?

[Lemur]

Do you people get it now or do I need to add colors?

I, for one, would like to see these colors.

Please?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PUH-leese

I have forgotten more about the MRM than you will ever learn.

The root of the problem is traditonal gender roles were shaken by the industrial revolution and were shattered by our post industrial society

We just need our law and culture to catch up with reality. Men and Women both have areas of life where it sucks to be a man or a woman

Do you people get it now or do I need to add colors?

So - back to the kitchen with them, yes? Barefoot, naked and pregnant, right?

[Kadagar_AV]

So - back to the kitchen with them, yes? Barefoot, naked and pregnant, right?

Uh... I for one would prefer high heels and not pregnant...

But I get your point and agree. However, I think SFTS agrees too. I also think he makes an excellent point, that the "modern" (last hundreds of years) inventions has scrambled the old relationship between men and women, and that the law has not caught up.

[drone]

The index in New York State is 4.4 per 100,000, in Texas it's 5 - how's that for demonstrating no deterrent?

Considering the strictness of NY gun control laws, I'd say they do pretty well for themselves.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uh... I for one would prefer high heels and not pregnant...

But I get your point and agree. However, I think SFTS agrees too. I also think he makes an excellent point, that the "modern" (last hundreds of years) inventions has scrambled the old relationship between men and women, and that the law has not caught up.

Yes, but you're a full blooded Scandanavian, I'm not as tall.

Considering the strictness of NY gun control laws, I'd say they do pretty well for themselves.

You mean, despite the strict gun controls they still manage to kill lots of people? The point is, there is little to no evidence that the death penalty is an effective deterrent.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, but you're a full blooded Scandanavian, I'm not as tall.

Swedish and half Austrian actually...

The throw of the dice gave me the Swedish looks and the Austrian way of skiing. I am utterly blessed, the other way around would have been horrible!!

But back to the point, I do think SFTS's argument holds value. Moderns laws has NOT caught up with the changes we have seen in society at large.

[Centurion1]

California has the death penalty, and has more people on death row than any other state. According to wiki, they have executed 13 since the 1976 reinstatement, they apparently are not as keen on carrying out the punishment as they are with the sentencing of it. Typical Cali.

Edit-> Cali is reworking their chamber/process, executions suspended since 2006 until they get it right.

Well my fault an I apologize. I thought at least
They were very very squeamish about it in comparison to say tecas

[Kadagar_AV]

Well my fault an I apologize. I thought at least
They were very very squeamish about it in comparison to say tecas

That does not say much, have you SEEN what Texas produce?

[Centurion1]

Why do you use battle school slang?

Enders game draws its slang from other countries. Neh is a Japanese affectation which means like, right? Or isn't that so. I use it because I know a lot of Japanese kids growing up in navy towns and it became common slang among kids at schools I went to when I was little and my best friend uses it and I parrot him which I tend to do.Plus I have a few weird quirks linguistically anyway.

I'm not here debating holes in death penalty especially while on my phone in merely trying to ad facts to the case and was revoking my statement.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Enders game draws its slang from other countries. Neh is a Japanese affectation which means like, right? Or isn't that so. I use it because I know a lot of Japanese kids growing up in navy towns and it became common slang among kids at schools I went to when I was little and my best friend uses it and I parrot him which I tend to do.Plus I have a few weird quirks linguistically anyway.

I'm not here debating holes in death penalty especially while on my phone in merely trying to ad facts to the case and was revoking my statement.

James Murdoch actually said a couple of years ago that "profit is the only garrentee of quality".

He's an idiot.

It seems that the old habit of shooting the messenger is completely lost on the American general public - i.e. if you pay two men to tell you the news they'll compete to tell you what you want to hear, so that you pay more.

[Kadagar_AV]

James Murdoch actually said a couple of years ago that "profit is the only garrentee of quality".

He's an idiot.

It seems that the old habit of shooting the messenger is completely lost on the American general public - i.e. if you pay two men to tell you the news they'll compete to tell you what you want to hear, so that you pay more.

<- This.

When people wonder why I bother with this forum.