The ban on Holocaust denial is crap

[Vuk]

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

This is not a slippery slope. The Org is not careening toward NewSpeak and ThoughtCrime. We do not have a long, rich history of Holocaust Denial threads that need protecting. More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened. Which, given the vast amount of documents, eyewitnesses, films and firsthand accounts, is no great sacrifice.

We accommodate Birthers, Truthers, Royalists, Flat Earthers, Biblical Literalists, Freemasons, Area 51/Roswell fans, Second Amendment absolutists, vegans, Paultards, Dittoheads, Randians, and crazy cat ladies. All without trouble. For an admin to specify one take on one topic that is out of bounds? Not Orwellian.

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

[Hooahguy]

Regardless of what you believe you must accept the reality that in some places its illegal and as such you must respect that, since by not doing so it may put fellow Orgahs at risk.

[Montmorency]

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

This is a correct post, surely.

[johnhughthom]

This discussion is pretty much going round in circles. For me Andres not being in even the slightest danger of being taken to court and remaining admin here trumps unlikely to occur hypothetical free speech situations any day of the week.

[a completely inoffensive name]

[thechicken]

Ok last attempt before I throw the towel in. I told myself not to, but there is some pretty funny stuff here.

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

No translation needed, it is how I posted it: A slippery slope. Like I said, I guess it is better if the mod guys do all the posting, saves confusion, rules are followed, it is one of those win win things all round huh?

You can apply your holocaust denial ruling/amendment to 9 11 the armenian genocide and pretty much every war, massacre or controversial event in the history of the world. If you are going to have this 'proven fact according to westerners so do not question it' rule, it makes your super special back room forum worthless, but I bet you do not see it that way?

More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened.

LOL!

And this andres guy is still full of angst about getting sued and posting the same diatribe again? Seriously look at yourselves W...T... F............... talk about making a mountain out of an ant hill!

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

Makes a lot of sense fella, but I am sure your leaders here will explain to you just how wrong you are very shortly.

LOL! seriously this is the best laugh I had all day but I really should go now, over and out.

[Sigurd]

Why the hell do we need to adhere to "free speech" in the first place?

So the buzzer got kicked off our local curb by the resident shop keeper with a clear message of "bugger off, get yerself to another street corner with your bollocks".
I don't see the inherent problem here. This is a site for totalwar fans - to primarily read and discuss totalwar games.

[Andres]

No translation needed, it is how I posted it: A slippery slope. Like I said, I guess it is better if the mod guys do all the posting, saves confusion, rules are followed, it is one of those win win things all round huh?

You can apply your holocaust denial ruling/amendment to 9 11 the armenian genocide and pretty much every war, massacre or controversial event in the history of the world. If you are going to have this 'proven fact according to westerners so do not question it' rule, it makes your super special back room forum worthless, but I bet you do not see it that way?


LOL!

And this andres guy is still full of angst about getting sued and posting the same diatribe again? Seriously look at yourselves W...T... F............... talk about making a mountain out of an ant hill!

You're the one making a mountain out of an ant hill here.

Nothing has changed except that Holocaust denial being specifically labeled as "not allowed". One could argue if Holocaust denial in the style done by truth1337 wasn't already violating our general forum rules, but that's a different question.

The reason for specifically banning Holocaust denial is clear: risk that yours truly gets into trouble with his own national authorities because of his national law. It's a very, very small risk, I grant you that. But I don't want to take it, because I have a wife and kid and aim to exercise a profession that requires a completely stainless reputation and clean sheet. That's the only reason. It's not banned because it fits the personal opinions of staff; in fact, I didn't consult with my staff about this, not even with my fellow Admins; I acted alone and it's my decision alone, so there's no need to blame all moderators and other staff because of this. If you insist on blaming someone for the discomfort this decision causes, then blame me and only me; nobody else. Your insinuations about all staff that is not Andres are incorrect and false. You're entitled to hold your opinion that I'm placing my personal interests above those of the site and that I should step down because of it.

I apologise for the possible inconvenience this decision may cause, but it will stand and won't be altered.

[drone]

Personally, I think laws against Holocaust denial are stupid and misguided. It's way more fun to point and laugh at the machinations of the racists. That being said, the Org has never been a full free speech zone. We already have topics that are forbidden, and some of them are forbidden for legal reasons (they would get us in trouble). This is no different.

[Papewaio]

Patrons are asked to self moderate themselves.

Mr Elite Truths statements would be considered Holcaust Denial which can trigger problems for members in Belgium and Germany. Considering one of our current admins is a Belgium resident, a previous one is German and Tosa will always be a part of the Netherlands where he lays in rest... We have quite a few patrons who are law abiding citizens and administrators who are held accountable for the overall tone and actions of the Org.

Andres approach was a surgical strike on the problematic issue at hand. My approach that I've unsuccessfully argued for was more akin to castration with a pair of bricks. I have lobbied for a more broader approach that would make such a topic banned under more general terms.

Andres approach creates a self contained event and follows the Orgs approach to copyright and piracy. You can discuss piracy at the Org, you cannot however commit piracy at the Org. You can discuss the Holocaust, it's facts and figures, you can discuss Holocaust Denial, you cannot however commit Holocaust Denial at the Org.

=][=

Vuk these have been some of the wisest posts I've seen from you. Keep bringing your A game to the backroom.

thechicken you've made some good posts, riled a few feathers, and touched up the paranoid. You are a natural for the Backroom. Also you might want to increase your post count to post length ratio as posts in a Watchtower don't count. I'm sure your posts and eloquence will find some worthy adversaries amongst the patrons.

[SoFarSoGood]

Nothing to add to the above really. The ban is stupid but the ban exists in some countries where people may get into get into trouble for permitting it to be broken. I disagree with it as freedom of speech is golden but my dispute is NOT with the admins but with the Parliaments in the countries they reside in.

[Andres]

Nothing to add to the above really.

I concur

Closed.