New PC (finally)

[Andres]

Well, I've finally decided to start watching out for a new PC

I really don't know much about hardware, but I have been told that a current promotion in our local PC shop is very interesting.

Here are the specifics:

Operating System : Windows Vista Home Premium
CPU : Intel QuadCore Q6600 (2.40Ghz)
Case : Aopen QF50D
Motherboard : Intel Dragontail Peak
RAM : DDR2 4GB
Hard drive : WD 500GB (7200rpm)
DVD Burner : DVDR+-RW+R9 SATA
Video card : GeForce 8600GT 512Mb PCI-E
Lan : 10/100/1000 Mbps
Sound : Audio 7.1 HD Audio
CardReader : All In One
Keyboard/Mouse : Logitech Cordless Desktop EX 110

It comes at 899,00 € (I live in Belgium) and frankly, that's about as much as I'm willing to spend on it.

Is this a good deal?

Note : I'm looking for something decent which allows me to 1) keep gaming for about 2 years without having to upgrade ; 2) a system that is upgradable.

EDIT : Here I am, wearing my shiny "infallible and perfect moderator"-suit, posting in the wrong forum LEN, can you discretely move this to the Hard- and Software forum?

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm that's a desktop right?
The prince looks about right, maybe a tiny bit high as the graphics card is relatively low end compared to what you can get nowadays. Note that the second part of its number (600) is what's really important. So a 7900 is for instance better than a 8600. Figure you can get an upgrade of that?

[Andres]

Hmmm that's a desktop right??

Desktop indeed. And I forgot to mention: it comes with a free copy of Assassin's Creed

The prince looks about right, maybe a tiny bit high as the graphics card is relatively low end compared to what you can get nowadays. Note that the second part of its number (600) is what's really important. So a 7900 is for instance better than a 8600. Figure you can get an upgrade of that?

So, my good ol' ATI Radeon 9800 is a better card?

They sell that system pre-assembled, but I know one of the guys who works there, so it should be possible to get something better, but it'll probably cost me more.

Any recommendations?

[FactionHeir]

Well, I have no idea about ATI, so can't answer that

But yes, generally you look at both the series and at the suffix (LE, GT, GTS, GS, and what not)

[Andres]

Ok, thnx for the tip

Now, the hardest part of this purchase will be convincing my lovely wife about the absolute neccessity of a new PC...

[FactionHeir]

Tell her you need it to run word better. Or convince her with the flashy new Vista (even though I think anyone would agree downgrading to XP would be better)

How many computers do you have at home though, if only one, then you can LAN up. If two, you got a home proxy now.

[LeftEyeNine]

[Crazed Rabbit]

That's an old card, considering the recently released ones from both nVidia and AMD/ATI.

It seems the best card for your money is the Radeon 4850, at 200USD or less.

CR

[Lemur]

Also, I would seriously question the need for a quad-core CPU. Unless you're doing video encoding, it's hard to see where the cost/benefit thingy would work there. A speedy dual-core is likely to give you much more love ...

Gimme two fast cores and a good video card, and I'm ready to rock.

[Andres]

Ok then. Would this system be worth the 150 € more they ask for it?


Operating System : Windows Vista Home Premium
CPU : Intel Core2Duo E8400 (3.0Ghz)
Case : Aopen QF50J
Motherboard : Intel Dragontail Peak
RAM : DDR2 4GB
Hard drive : WD 500GB (7200rpm)
DVD Burner : DVDR+-RW+R9 SATA
Video card : GeForce 8800GT 512Mb PCI-E
Lan : 10/100/1000 Mbps
Sound : Audio 7.1 HD Audio
CardReader : All In One
Keyboard/Mouse : Logitech Cordless Desktop EX 110

To me it doesn't, as when I look at the prices of seperate pieces, the Intel Core2Duo E8400 (3.0Ghz) comes 20 € cheaper and the GeForce 8800GT 512Mb PCI-E only at 100 € more expensive, which makes a difference of 80 € instead of 150 €. Also, I don't need the Keyboard/Mouse, since I already have that.

I'm tempted to try to bargain with the guy, but on the other hand, it's no longer really a local shop like it used to be, they are part of a chain now and the PC's they offer are pre-assembled, but I'm not willing to let them rip me of.

[FactionHeir]

Case seems different. Is that worth 80 euros?

[Whacker]

That whole setup sounds like $1000 is very, very expensive. What kind of warranty or service do they offer you and for how long?

[Husar]

Hmmm....

The second system seems quite a bit better, especially the graphics card, but 150EUR more may indeed be too much, is there no local store that sells single parts or so?

If they just sell them preassembled, go elsewhere, the good stores will let you choose all the parts and help you choose them and charge like 20EUR or so to build it together for you and make sure it runs.

[Andres]

That whole setup sounds like $1000 is very, very expensive. What kind of warranty or service do they offer you and for how long?

Welcome in Europe

[Andres]

Hmmm....

The second system seems quite a bit better, especially the graphics card, but 150EUR more may indeed be too much, is there no local store that sells single parts or so?

If they just sell them preassembled, go elsewhere, the good stores will let you choose all the parts and help you choose them and charge like 20EUR or so to build it together for you and make sure it runs.

Yeah, there's a store like that not so far from where I live. I'll probably pay them a visit first. They even offer to install parts of your current pc that are still usable in the new one free of charge.

Not that my current PC contains something that is still usable though...

I think I'm going to print out the offer of the other store and ask them if they can give me the same but
100 € cheaper.

Case seems different. Is that worth 80 euros?

Nope, same price.

[seireikhaan]

Well, I'm not sure about computer prices in Europe, but in America, that seems like it'd be awfully expensive given exchange rate and such, so it'd be about $1600 USD, which seems expensive compared to the stuff I've seen from the major companies. The processor is nice, but I just can't shake the feeling that the system is overpriced, especially given the relatively adequate graphics card. One thing you'll want to double check on is that you're getting the 64 bit version of Vista. The 32 bit version can only take advantage of up to 3 gigs of Ram, so you'd be adding extra cost for no benefit.

[Crazed Rabbit]

But 4GB of RAM isn't that much more expensive than 3GB, anyways.

You can get a 4850 - pretty much better than anything but nVidia's current top two cards - the 280 and 260, which retail for hundreds more, for less than $200. nVidia has dropped the 9800 GTX to 230 USD, as well.

I'm pushing the point because right now, this past month and the rest of the summer at least, is a good time to buy a graphics card because of the reinvigorated competition, and it seems foolish to get a last generation card for the equivalent of ~160 USD. But if this is a comp store, I guess they take a while to get the newer stuff in their builds. Still, it doesn't seem like a good deal.

CR

[Andres]

Hmmm, ok, I've looked at the website of the other shop (where they offer better service, so it seems, and are much friendlier and helpful on the phone)

I can have this:

Processor - AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 6400+ - AM2 - 3,20 GHz - with Original AMD Cooler
Mainboard ATX Asus M2N-SLI (AMD AM2, nForce 560, USB 2.0, gigabit lan, SATA, audio 8 channel, firewire, ...)
Memory DDR2 Dimm 2Gb 800 mhz (PC6400) (x 2)
Harddisk 320GB - 7200rpm - PATA133
Videocard PCI-E GeForce 8800GT- 512MB DDR3 - Silent fan
DvD Writer Dual Layer 16x black front - DVD +/- R(w) & CDr(w) - IDE
Case Antec Sonata III Low Noise + 500 watt power supply
Microsoft - Windows Vista64 Home Premium NL oem

for +/- 880,00 € (and the guy on the phone told me that I can get an additional discount if I order all components at his shop). Seems like a better deal. They don't seem to have the Radeon 4850 on stock, but maybe they can order it. I've compared prices, and it should be available for about 179 €, which is
30 € less expensive then the GeForce 8800 GT. But which is the better card? Or is the difference so small that it doesn't really matter? Isn't Radeon better compatable with AMD then GeForce (or does that question shows that I don't know about hardware )

Two questions about that system:

a) AMD vs INTEL : is this AMD processor good enough for gaming? I'm under the impression that AMD gives me a better price/quality... (a comparable INTEL system would cost me about 100 € more)
b) I remember something about cooling issues with AMD. Should I go for an additional CPU cooler or does that problem no longer exists with AMD ?

And to complete my display of total lack of knowledge: does Vista come with words/outlook/excel or do I have to buy that seperately? Or is there any decent freeware that does the same and is compatible with Windows Vista? Can I still use my good ol' Office 2000 package on a Vista PC?

[Husar]

Well, I'm not sure about computer prices in Europe, but in America, that seems like it'd be awfully expensive given exchange rate and such, so it'd be about $1600 USD, which seems expensive compared to the stuff I've seen from the major companies.

1$ = 1€ when talking about computer hardware, and probably some other things as well, in some cases the number in € is even higher than in $...

I agree about Vista 64 bit though, but if you have an old digi cam or so, make sure it has appropriate drivers for whatever Vista you're getting, many companies seem lazy and release only 32 bit drivers.

[pevergreen]

And to complete my display of total lack of knowledge: does Vista come with words/outlook/excel or do I have to buy that seperately? Or is there any decent freeware that does the same and is compatible with Windows Vista? Can I still use my good ol' Office 2000 package on a Vista PC?

When my XPS1530 arrived with Vista preinstalled, i had a set of programs that are by looks the same, but called Microsoft Works. Seemed to have another version of Word/Excel maybe access, but not outlook, Windows Mail.

This is all Vista Home Premuim.

[FactionHeir]

Afaik Works is different from Office. Works is more or less the cheaper and older variant of Office or so.

[Lemur]

a) AMD vs INTEL : is this AMD processor good enough for gaming? I'm under the impression that AMD gives me a better price/quality... (a comparable INTEL system would cost me about 100 € more)

Actually, as much as I love AMD, your info is out-of-date. Dollar-for-dollar, Intel is faster these days. However, a 3.2 mhz dual-core AMD chip should get you through most gaming situations just fine. It's that videocard that worries me ...

[Andres]

Actually, as much as I love AMD, your info is out-of-date. Dollar-for-dollar, Intel is faster these days. However, a 3.2 mhz dual-core AMD chip should get you through most gaming situations just fine. It's that videocard that worries me ...

Which one? The Radeon 4850 or the GeForce 8800 GT?

Do you recommend something else in about the same price category?

[Lemur]

Oh, the Radeon 4850 sounds peachy to me. No, it's the 8800GT that seems a little under-muscled for the price. And what is the price, anyway? There's no breakdown by component. Can you give me a link to the place where you're shopping? That could be really helpful ...

[Andres]

Here you go. It's one of the least expensive shops around here.

Mind you, they only list what they have in stock, but you can order about anything. The Radeon 4850 comes at 179 €, the GeForce at 210 €.

http://www.bitz.be/

[Lemur]

I think I can state with some authority that Bitz Computers' web site makes my eyes bleed. Okay, are you willing to order part-by-part, or do you need it to be pre-assembled? And if you swap a part around, will they work with you? That's half the benefit of working with a local shop, right?

-edit-

Man, I do not know how you navigate that web site without having a nervous breakdown. Here's the processor I'd suggest:

11744 Processor Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 - 3 GHz 6MB S775 - 1333 FSB 45 nm - With Original Intel Cooler 173,00

Can't even find the relevant video cards. I'll take your word for them.

[Andres]

I think I can state with some authority that Bitz Computers' web site makes my eyes bleed. Okay, are you willing to order part-by-part, or do you need it to be pre-assembled? And if you swap a part around, will they work with you? That's half the benefit of working with a local shop, right?

I can order part-by-part and they assemble it free of charge. They call it "PC à la carte" (I can't assemble it myself )

[Andres]

Videocard AGP 128 MB (ATI or nVIDIA) - (No Fan - No Noise) --- 36,00
Videocard AGP ATI 2600XT - 512 DDR2 --- 100,50
Videocard AGP GeForce 7600GS - 512 DDR2 fanless --- 108,50
Videocard AGP Nvidia Geforce 6200 - 256mb ---- 45,95
Videocard PCI-E ATI HD3850 - 512MB DDR3 ---- 208,00
Videocard PCI-E ATI HD3870 - 512MB DDR4 ---- 247,00
Videocard PCI-E GeForce 8400GS - 256MB DDR2 ---- 35,50
Videocard PCI-E GeForce 8500GT - 1024MB DDR2 ---- 73,50
Videocard PCI-E GeForce 8800GT- 512MB DDR3 - Silent fan ---- 215,00
Videocard PCI-E GeForce 8800GTS- 320MB DDR3 ----- 143,50
Videocard PCI-E GeForce 9600GT- 512MB DDR3 ---- 152,00

[Lemur]

I would take Crazed Rabbit's advice and special-order a Radeon 4850. Just doing a cursory read of the reviews tells me it's the new crown champion of the price/performance curve.

Then I would order that 3 ghz Core2Duo for the proc.

Then I would pick up any old 500 gig hard drive to give myself lots of room for educational software or video encoding.

Just about any modern motherboard should do the trick. I wouldn't bother paying extra for SLI capability, since you aren't going to use it. No, don't lie to yourself, you aren't.

Put it all in a case you can live with, and slap a decent DVD burner in there, and you're pretty much good to go. Don't skimp on the power supply, of course ...

[Andres]

Just got back from the friendly guy at Bitz' computers.

This is what I ordered:

Processor - AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 6400+ - AM2 - 3,20 GHz - with Original AMD Cooler
Mainboard ATX Asus M2N-SLI (AMD AM2, nForce 560, USB 2.0, gigabit lan, SATA, audio 8 channel, firewire, ...)
Memory DDR2 Dimm 2Gb 800 mhz (PC6400) (x 2)
Harddisk 320GB - 7200rpm - PATA133
ATI Radeon HD4850 PCIE 512 MB
DvD Writer Dual Layer 16x black front - DVD +/- R(w) & CDr(w) - IDE
Case Antec Sonata III Low Noise + 500 watt power supply
Microsoft - Windows Vista32 Home Premium NL oem
+assembling.

All of this for 834,00 € (VAT (21%!) included)

He had to order the Radeon 4850. If all goes well, the PC should be ready next Friday

I have 200 GB on my current system which I can use for, eh, educational software.

Thnx for the advice guys. Very much appreciated