Is Islam true?.

[rvg]

Here's a link to a site which has selectively chosen and highlighted what it takes to be the most divisive and anti Jewish and Christian passages specifically to further an agenda:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...koranjews.html

I have to say that if that is as bad as it gets when presented in as bad a context as possible then it doesn't amount to much. The worst of it is just saying that God will judge the Jews and Christians and that anyone else who is an unbeliever will feel the wrath. Slightly more tolerant than Christianity really. No one but the inner circle get on the guest list there.

This is a nice rundown...

Koran 5:51 basically says it all. No comments needed.

[Hax]

Let's whip out the old Arabic Quran:

"yâ ayyuha alladina 'âmanu la-tattahidu-lyahûda wa-nnasârâ awliyâ'a"

Now, I am far from an expert on Arabic or Qur'anic exegesis, but I'd translate it something like

"Oh, you who believe, do not take the Jews or the Christians [as] governors". Now, the word here probably doesn't mean governor, but looking up the word "wali" in the dictionaries, we find things such as:

manager of a thing or of the affairs of another (Msb.:) the guardian, or manager of the affairs and maintainer, of an orphan: the guardian of a woman, who affiances her, and independently of whom marriage cannot be contracted by her.

There are a lot of different meanings to the word "wali" (awliya being a plural form). This does not mean that the Qur'an is saying that Christians are really cool, but it might mean something different.

EDIT: Also this notion of "no comments needed" is relatively silly. You have no ideas about how difficult it is to render Arabic into English or Dutch, for example. I have problems translating modern literature into understandeable (and meaningful) Dutch, let alone poetry or religious text.

[Sigurd]

You shouldn't get trolled... This TR is just posting slightly related texts he finds on the internet as answers to your posts.

It took me a little while to get it, but you can clearly see quality changes many times over in his posts. The stuff he actually produces has very bad grammar and is near unintelligible, but then he put something in as a direct answer to something you wrote and you go.. huh?
It is intelligible, but slightly off, and usually mentions something you didn't claim.
If you take that exact text and google it, you'll find it somewhere else, usually on a Christian apologetic site like answersingenesis.

[total relism]

Here's a link to a site which has selectively chosen and highlighted what it takes to be the most divisive and anti Jewish and Christian passages specifically to further an agenda:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...koranjews.html

I have to say that if that is as bad as it gets when presented in as bad a context as possible then it doesn't amount to much. The worst of it is just saying that God will judge the Jews and Christians and that anyone else who is an unbeliever will feel the wrath. Slightly more tolerant than Christianity really. No one but the inner circle get on the guest list there.

I would say it gets much worse and clearer in koran, post 20-23. My guess,you will never even read the passages or koran.

You shouldn't get trolled... This TR is just posting slightly related texts he finds on the internet as answers to your posts.

It took me a little while to get it, but you can clearly see quality changes many times over in his posts. The stuff he actually produces has very bad grammar and is near unintelligible, but then he put something in as a direct answer to something you wrote and you go.. huh?
It is intelligible, but slightly off, and usually mentions something you didn't claim.
If you take that exact text and google it, you'll find it somewhere else, usually on a Christian apologetic site like answersingenesis.

So because i have bad grammar? I will wait for support for the rest, to point out logical fallacies and how arbitrary you are. But by all means, never debate content lol.

[total relism]

New debate


Zakir Hussain vs. David Wood: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and the Covenant
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/

[Kadagar_AV]

New debate


Zakir Hussain vs. David Wood: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and the Covenant
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/

I think it's important with the basics.

Abraham is clearly significant in the formation of Islam; he is found in 25 suras of the Koran. He is a prophet, one who received revelation, the example of pure faith, who paid his debt in full, and a strict monotheist who struggled with idol worshipers. Islam is said to be an expression of the religion of Abraham, the friend of God; and Abraham is considered a prototype of Mohammed.

The Koran is said to have been given by revelation to the illiterate Mohammed by dictation. But it is certain that was made from several sources chosen because they fit the ideas of Mohammed: (1) pre-Islamic traditional beliefs in poetic form, (2) Talmudic legends from Jews in Arabia, (3) misinformation from heretical Christian sects, (4) eastern ideas from Persia and India (Arabia was under Persian control), and (5) ideas from his friends who were seeking truth. The most frequent source is the material from the Jewish Talmud.

Mohammed appears to have made several changes in the traditions. First, people would now face Mecca to pray, and not Jerusalem. Second, Abraham and Ishmael are said to have built the Kaaba, the black structure in the middle of the shrine in Mecca (originally housing many gods), and rivals Solomon’s building of the temple. Third, Ishmael comes to prominence as the “chosen of God.”

Ishmael then becomes recognized as a prophet (even though he came to prominence late in the Koran--early on he is not mentioned, only Isaac and Jacob).

But later Mohammed taught that Abraham went to Mecca to sacrifice his son (who is not named)--that son came to be identified as Ishmael. Mohammed also believed that Abraham accompanied Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca before returning home to Sarah. Ishmael married a South Arabian; Abraham came to visit him and together they built the black stone shrine. Islam heralds God as the “God of Abraham, Ishmael, and Mohammed.”

And in the traditions Ishmael is in strife to inherit the promises to Abraham (Genesis 16, 17, 21 form a paradigm of the conflict). At the center is Jerusalem, which becomes another holy spot for Islam (the third in order after Mecca and Medina), for the tradition is that Abraham built it, Mohammed’s flight and descent were located there, and Arabs possessed it. Jerusalem is not important in the Koran.

Christians need to know more about these kinds of traditions in Islam, because right or wrong they are traditions deeply rooted in religion and politics. In dealing with Islamic people Christians should focus more on God’s grace in choosing a disobedient people rather than giving the impression that Israel was God’s favorite over all other nations.

[The Stranger]

What on earth is this fascination with "1v1 debate"....?

Duh, he is more skilled in 1v1, PVC is a teamplayer, everyone knows 1v1 is way harder and 1v1 players rape teamplayers. Every now and then teamplayers need to be put in their place by 1v1 players to make clear the natural order of things. It has been so since the dawn of e-sports and it will be so untill the dusk of times.

Don't forget to say GG NO RE after the 1v1 debate and egopost the result on reddit, facebook and twitter.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Duh, he is more skilled in 1v1, PVC is a teamplayer, everyone knows 1v1 is way harder and 1v1 players rape teamplayers. Every now and then teamplayers need to be put in their place by 1v1 players to make clear the natural order of things. It has been so since the dawn of e-sports and it will be so untill the dusk of times.

Don't forget to say GG NO RE after the 1v1 debate and egopost the result on reddit, facebook and twitter.

For the love of god, play me 1v1 in StarCraft 2 you scrub.

[The Stranger]

For the love of god, play me 1v1 in StarCraft 2 you scrub.

I'm an AoE3 player but I could actually own you in SC2 because AoE3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SC2.

(on a sidenote I actually play both games tbh, it would be fun to play you if you want :D ah i forgot about the server thing =_= i hope for you you are not on the EU server or I will still have to kick ur ass XD)

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm an AoE3 player but I could actually own you in SC2 because AoE3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SC2.

(on a sidenote I actually play both games tbh, it would be fun to play you if you want :D ah i forgot about the server thing =_= i hope for you you are not on the EU server or I will still have to kick ur ass XD)

What league bro? Also, Heart of the Swarm will have cross server play.

[Idaho]

This is a nice rundown...

Koran 5:51 basically says it all. No comments needed.

That page has conflated unbelievers with non Muslims and then quoted texts about both.

I thought all you god botherers were down on unbelievers?

[Sigurd]

So because i have bad grammar? I will wait for support for the rest, to point out logical fallacies and how arbitrary you are. But by all means, never debate content lol.

Sorry M8, your content is all over the place and hard to follow, besides it introduces a lot of strawmen because you blatantly plagiarize other people's stuff - which are really answers to comments that we didn't make.


I could just load my auto text generator with Argumentum ad Ignorantium, Argumentum ad Lapidem, Argumentum ad Verecundiam (some authority persons in your links aren't really authority figures on those subjects), Ignoratio Elenchi (for your copy paste of other's remarks), Reductio ad absurdum (to prove a document’s originality despite its non-existence), Various Strawmen and finally Argumentum ad Neuseam.
If by chance you would actually write the stuff you debate, this would be interesting. Right now, this is not much more than a bot – selecting random relevant stuff on the web as answers to our comments. It displays a bit of disrespect for the person you debate, and show that you don’t really read or possibly understand what is being discussed.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hello there,

For forewords, I could be counted a not-really-much-practicing Muslim who is, as most of other believers are, Muslim (or christian or jew etc.) from birth due to the social surrounding I was raised in. I am not fond of religious people -at least of those in Turkey- who are generally imposing their beliefs and practices upon you from under the shield called "Islam".

So, here is the bottomline (of my post that does not really have any serious context already):

If one argues a celestial religion to be better than the other, he/she is archaic. His/her thoughts need to be discarded ASAP for all he could ignite is either fanaticism among his friends, or anger towards whom he/she dissents religiously. No compromise has EVER been yielded from "my x is longer than yours" kind of approach. Therefore, if one pursues such ideal, he/she should be shown the door, or the window for a better view.

Should some Muslim with the alias DudeI'mTotallyAllahuAkbarred come around and inquire the "truth of Christianism" over a pro-Islamic agenda, copy/paste what I've written upon his face too. We have far worse problems already that is threatening our welfare, peace and environment. Thank you with your Arabic/Arahmic/blablaic babblings however I got better things to do -I should have got better things to do.

Let "faith" be shelved up to where it belongs -between you and your God- not in front of anybody's nose.

[The Stranger]

on topic



uh... i dont get it, did i say something wrong huh? what? potatoes patatoes?



off topic about sc2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What league bro? Also, Heart of the Swarm will have cross server play.

heart of the swarm isnt out for ages :P but from that comment i take it you are not on the eu server?

im platinum but i barely play the game. i should be able to get into diamond, perhaps master if i really try. i was already in master for team but like i said, team games are usually easier and they are a complete joke on sc2 XD

[rvg]

I thought all you god botherers were down on unbelievers?

What's a god botherer?

[Lemur]

What's a god botherer?

Someone who won't stop pestering the Almighty with invocations and demands. You know, the sort of person who believes that Yaweh has nothing better to do than help your football team win.

[Idaho]

What's a god botherer?

One who believes you can petition the Lord with prayer.

[/Church of the Supremely Indifferent]

[Hax]

Besides, football is haram.

[rvg]

Besides, football is haram.

Fatwas are awesome.

[Idaho]

Fatwas are awesome.

It's a problem when you draw your reality from faith. You tend to come to the wrong conclusions. Logic and reason have no place in temples, mosques and churches. As a courtesy, we ask that god botherers keep their faith out of law, government, health care, and most of the stuff that matters.

[rvg]

As a courtesy, we ask that god botherers keep their faith out of law, government, health care, and most of the stuff that matters.

How'd that go?

[total relism]

I think it's important with the basics.

Abraham is clearly significant in the formation of Islam; he is found in 25 suras of the Koran. He is a prophet, one who received revelation, the example of pure faith, who paid his debt in full, and a strict monotheist who struggled with idol worshipers. Islam is said to be an expression of the religion of Abraham, the friend of God; and Abraham is considered a prototype of Mohammed.

The Koran is said to have been given by revelation to the illiterate Mohammed by dictation. But it is certain that was made from several sources chosen because they fit the ideas of Mohammed: (1) pre-Islamic traditional beliefs in poetic form, (2) Talmudic legends from Jews in Arabia, (3) misinformation from heretical Christian sects, (4) eastern ideas from Persia and India (Arabia was under Persian control), and (5) ideas from his friends who were seeking truth. The most frequent source is the material from the Jewish Talmud.

Mohammed appears to have made several changes in the traditions. First, people would now face Mecca to pray, and not Jerusalem. Second, Abraham and Ishmael are said to have built the Kaaba, the black structure in the middle of the shrine in Mecca (originally housing many gods), and rivals Solomon’s building of the temple. Third, Ishmael comes to prominence as the “chosen of God.”

Ishmael then becomes recognized as a prophet (even though he came to prominence late in the Koran--early on he is not mentioned, only Isaac and Jacob).

But later Mohammed taught that Abraham went to Mecca to sacrifice his son (who is not named)--that son came to be identified as Ishmael. Mohammed also believed that Abraham accompanied Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca before returning home to Sarah. Ishmael married a South Arabian; Abraham came to visit him and together they built the black stone shrine. Islam heralds God as the “God of Abraham, Ishmael, and Mohammed.”

And in the traditions Ishmael is in strife to inherit the promises to Abraham (Genesis 16, 17, 21 form a paradigm of the conflict). At the center is Jerusalem, which becomes another holy spot for Islam (the third in order after Mecca and Medina), for the tradition is that Abraham built it, Mohammed’s flight and descent were located there, and Arabs possessed it. Jerusalem is not important in the Koran.

Christians need to know more about these kinds of traditions in Islam, because right or wrong they are traditions deeply rooted in religion and politics. In dealing with Islamic people Christians should focus more on God’s grace in choosing a disobedient people rather than giving the impression that Israel was God’s favorite over all other nations.

Kadagar_AV;2053499728
Great on topic post thank you. dont forget about Abraham

A book on this subject, that compares people in koran vs same people in bible is here
http://www.audible.com/pd?asin=B0036...FUid4AodPkkAkQ

from a christian perspective.

[total relism]

Sorry M8, your content is all over the place and hard to follow, besides it introduces a lot of strawmen because you blatantly plagiarize other people's stuff - which are really answers to comments that we didn't make.


I could just load my auto text generator with Argumentum ad Ignorantium, Argumentum ad Lapidem, Argumentum ad Verecundiam (some authority persons in your links aren't really authority figures on those subjects), Ignoratio Elenchi (for your copy paste of other's remarks), Reductio ad absurdum (to prove a document’s originality despite its non-existence), Various Strawmen and finally Argumentum ad Neuseam.
If by chance you would actually write the stuff you debate, this would be interesting. Right now, this is not much more than a bot – selecting random relevant stuff on the web as answers to our comments. It displays a bit of disrespect for the person you debate, and show that you don’t really read or possibly understand what is being discussed.

Again, I will wait for examples to reply. Whenever i use anything off web, I leave link right there.

[total relism]

Hello there,

For forewords, I could be counted a not-really-much-practicing Muslim who is, as most of other believers are, Muslim (or christian or jew etc.) from birth due to the social surrounding I was raised in. I am not fond of religious people -at least of those in Turkey- who are generally imposing their beliefs and practices upon you from under the shield called "Islam".

So, here is the bottomline (of my post that does not really have any serious context already):

If one argues a celestial religion to be better than the other, he/she is archaic. His/her thoughts need to be discarded ASAP for all he could ignite is either fanaticism among his friends, or anger towards whom he/she dissents religiously. No compromise has EVER been yielded from "my x is longer than yours" kind of approach. Therefore, if one pursues such ideal, he/she should be shown the door, or the window for a better view.

Should some Muslim with the alias DudeI'mTotallyAllahuAkbarred come around and inquire the "truth of Christianism" over a pro-Islamic agenda, copy/paste what I've written upon his face too. We have far worse problems already that is threatening our welfare, peace and environment. Thank you with your Arabic/Arahmic/blablaic babblings however I got better things to do -I should have got better things to do.

Let "faith" be shelved up to where it belongs -between you and your God- not in front of anybody's nose.

I cant help but notice, you seem to be sure that anyone who aparentley believes there beliefs to be true [me christian] are dangerous and should not have those beliefs. yet you yourself carry the belief that you are correct that no one belief is true. So you therefore should according to you, disregard your belief [that no one true belief is true] as soon as possible.


But I have to ask you, what makes two contradictory beliefs equally true? koran/bible? I say logically that is impossible, they can both not be true, or one can be, but they both cannot be. Neither can they be equally untrue, one has to be more untrue that the other. Also why is "anger" and "fanaticism " bad in your view? you seem more unwilling to change your opinion, than any Muslim i have met on forums. But you seem to offer a "better view" I would love to here this better view of yours, I will than show you only think it better based solely on your beliefs.

I dont see any reason why a Muslim should not start a thread attacking Christianity and i am christian you are not, yet you see problem. My guess you dont think there is such a thing a truth, well some of us do and we want to believe what is true, not what "feels good" or makes us happy.

I like these quotes off a christian site that has 100 of debates christian/Muslim.

"Freedom is hammered out on the anvil of discussion, dissent, and debate." ~Hubert Humphrey

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it." ~Joseph Joubert

"For in the absence of debate unrestricted utterance leads to the degradation of opinion. By a kind of Greshams law the more rational is overcome by the less rational, and the opinions that will prevail will be those which are held most ardently by those with the most passionate will. For that reason the freedom to speak can never be maintained merely by objecting to interference with the liberty of the press, of printing, of broadcasting, of the screen. It can be maintained only by promoting debate." ~Walter Lippmann




Let your beliefs you have been posted be between you and your liberal friends. No just kidding I like decent/debate. Thoe i find your post illogical and self contradictory.

[total relism]

It's a problem when you draw your reality from faith. You tend to come to the wrong conclusions. Logic and reason have no place in temples, mosques and churches. As a courtesy, we ask that god botherers keep their faith out of law, government, health care, and most of the stuff that matters.

Would you debate me 1v1 who has faith atheist or christian? also who can defend there position logically christian or atheist. Or even, what government would be better atheist or christian.

[Kadagar_AV]

Kadagar_AV;2053499728
Great on topic post thank you. dont forget about Abraham

A book on this subject, that compares people in koran vs same people in bible is here
http://www.audible.com/pd?asin=B0036...FUid4AodPkkAkQ

from a christian perspective.

It wasn't a great on topic post, it was spam. You just can't tell the difference.

[total relism]

It wasn't a great on topic post, it was spam. You just can't tell the difference.

I guess not, I loved it, first on topic post in awhile. Made me think for a min people care about talking about islam.

[The Stranger]

you definitely need a lesson skepticism 101... then a crash course subjectivism vs objectivism

[drone]

It wasn't a great on topic post, it was spam. You just can't tell the difference.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s....1.X7ASie_P0kc

you naughty boy!

[LeftEyeNine]

I cant help but notice, you seem to be sure that anyone who aparentley believes there beliefs to be true [me christian] are dangerous and should not have those beliefs. yet you yourself carry the belief that you are correct that no one belief is true. So you therefore should according to you, disregard your belief [that no one true belief is true] as soon as possible.

Since the rest of your post relies on this false assertion of yours, I'll only be replying to that.

Stating, on the hard facts, that pro-xism implemented via doubting "y"ism is an archaic way of thinking which only leads to fanaticism among "x"ists or anger from the despised "y"ists is a fact. It's not something I "believe", it's something I can only see throughout world's past, or in the town I'm living in.

Believing Christianism/Xism/Yism to be true is..well..belief. No faith is true since one who believes tends to ignore the skeptic thinking behind the systematic in question. That's why it's not called "classic physics" or "2 as a consequence of 1 plus 1", it's in faith's nature to skip every other rationalist thought which eventually makes you feel better in a way you're obliged or found out yourself.

Facts and beliefs. I'm not here to argue in semantics.