North Korea: History Will Judge Us Harshly

[rvg]

I think we're done with exporting democracy and human rights to unwilling buyers. Of course the situation in North Korea is nothing short of tragic, but imho we shouldn't intervene. With a million man army and possibly nukes the NK campaign would likely produce more harm than good. I sympathize with the people of North Korea, but we should stay our hand unless we are provoked militarily .

[Lemur]

imho we shouldn't intervene.

the only people with real leverage are the Chinese. Could we be be doing more to convince our friends in Beijing to do ... something? If so, what? If not, why?

This is really about whether or how we should work through the Chinese. Who may or may not be amenable to doing anything at all.

[drone]

Toppling the regime might actually be fairly easy. The trouble, as always, is what to do with the mess left behind. The task of integrating the North into a unified Korea will be orders of magnitude more costly than East Germany, and how do you "re-educate" (for the lack of a better term) a nation of people so brainwashed? And does China really want a unified, western-friendly Korea on it's doorstep?

[rory_20_uk]

The biggest problem was in the Korean War when the Allies went too close to China.
The second has been letting North Korea amass such a lot of weapons. And it is only getting worse. Each time we give in with aid they use this to maximise resources spent on weaponry to wring the next lot of freebies out.

The "best" long term option would be to neutron bomb the whole place. Mass murder now to prevent worse later on. I do not see those in charge divesting themselves of weaponry willingly.

[HopAlongBunny]

China has no good reason to do anything with regard to NK.

It maintains a "friendly", weak client state. The military in NK might be large but it is 0 threat to China.

I can't see any reason for China to wish for a change. I see very few levers that could be used; China is the West's source of bargain goods, many of which we have given up producing. I would love to hear from someone with sophisticated knowledge of China/Asia, but from my limited perspective there is no reason for China to desire a change.

[Beskar]

The thing about China is that it doesn't want the refugees from North Korea which it will get in outbreak of any kind of war. Best China can do in its interest is to control Korea from the top and since North Korea needs China far more than China needs North Korea, China can influence the direction it takes, especially under its new leader who may be convinced to do things more favourably to them.

[Lemur]

In related news, The Onion names Kim Jong Un "sexiest man alive," and China's People's Daily reports it as fact. Previous winners: Bashar al-Assad, Bernie Madoff, Charles and David Koch, Ted Kaczynski.

U.S. website The Onion has named North Korean supreme leader Kim Jong Un as the "Sexiest Man Alive for the year 2012".

"With his devastatingly handsome, round face, his boyish charm, and his strong, sturdy frame, this Pyongyang-bred heartthrob is every woman's dream come true. Blessed with an air of power that masks an unmistakable cute, cuddly side, Kim made this newspaper's editorial board swoon with his impeccable fashion sense, chic short hairstyle, and, of course, that famous smile," it said.

"He has that rare ability to somehow be completely adorable and completely macho at the same time," said Marissa Blake-Zweiber, editor of The Onion Style and Entertainment.

[Montmorency]

The task of integrating the North into a unified Korea will be orders of magnitude more costly than East Germany

Most estimates are what, $1-5 trillion?

One factor that may make the South Korean govt eager to 'acquire' North Korea is the potential of cheap labor and a huge boost for Korean construction, etc. Lot of work to do on the infrastructure, etc. The ideological indoctrination of the populace may be a problem for this, perhaps - but AFAIK North Koreans have no problem with their cousins. After a few years of unification, I don't see why one should expect hostility and intransigence from a "liberated" North Korean people.

And does China really want a unified, western-friendly Korea on it's doorstep?

Perhaps guarantees of no American military presence beyond the established boundary?

[Idaho]

I think we're done with exporting democracy and human rights to unwilling buyers.

I'd love to see some examples of this exported democracy. Is this the kind where you carpet bomb places first, carve up the assets among multinationals and try to install your own people? Or is there another kind that I haven't been made aware of?

[Kralizec]

This is the guy I mentioned earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_In_Geun

[Fragony]

lolmoment if true, it seems that the Great Leader was awarded with the title 'most sexy man on earth', unsurprisingly in North-Korea. Sounds like hoax but it's too good to be true admit it you want it to be true

[Husar]

No Fragony, that was an Onion joke and the chinese press thought it was serious, Lemur already posted it.

The Führer is always the sexiest man on earth because power makes incredibly attractive and attractive people are more successful.

[Fragony]

No Fragony, that was an Onion joke and the chinese press thought it was serious, Lemur already posted it.

That's a pity, it would have been so much fun.

[rvg]

I'd love to see some examples of this exported democracy. Is this the kind where you carpet bomb places first, carve up the assets among multinationals and try to install your own people? Or is there another kind that I haven't been made aware of?

There are plenty of examples... Haiti, Panama, Grenada.

[Idaho]

There are plenty of examples... Haiti, Panama, Grenada.

Keep going...

One could argue that these examples were about spreading hegemony rather than democracy.

[HopAlongBunny]

Chile!

Oh wait...Ok a democracy was transformed to an authoritarian regime which eventually became a democracy again. Lots of Multinational goodness in that example.

[Tuuvi]

I wonder if the North Koreans are really as brainwashed and happy as we suppose. We have almost no access North Korea, so we can't make an accurate assessment of how the people really think and feel. I have a feeling the happy North Korean peasants we do see could be putting on act.

[Kadagar_AV]

I wonder if the North Koreans are really as brainwashed and happy as we suppose. We have almost no access North Korea, so we can't make an accurate assessment of how the people really think and feel. I have a feeling the happy North Korean peasants we do see could be putting on act.

Absolutely.

Truth always gets out, just look at the underground Soviet humor and jokes of that era, brilliant!

An American and a Soviet soldier kill each other and end up at the pearly gates
at the same time. Peter says" well, we have national division in hell as well,
but you may choose where you'd like to go. There is an American hell and a
Russian hell."
American: what's the difference?
Peter: well, in the American hell you have to eat a shovel of shit a day.
Russian: and in Russian hell?
Peter: two shovels of shit.
American: I'll go to American hell.
Russian: well, two shovels of shit, it's not nice, but I was a Russian alive
and I died a Russian and I'll go to Russian hell.
Millenniums later, the same two soldiers end up doing sentry duty at the
checkpoint at the border between American and Russian hell at the same time.
Russian: Hi hi hi! How you doing! Long time no see!
American: Hey! How are you, you look good!
Russian: how is it over there in American hell?
American: oh, one shovel of shit a day, you get used to it. How about Russian
hell?
Russian: well, you know how it is, one day there's no shit, the next day no
shovels. . .