shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

[drone]

It is quite short, so I can't imagine how they might have extended the plot to make two movies out of it.

They are making 3 movies out of it. I believe they are adding in the Necromancer (Sauron at Dol Gulder) plot line to pad it out.

So, you can create new agents? Muslem princesses? Mendicant monks? Leprous beggars? Individual Holy Grail seekers? Peripatetic troubadours? Any other legendary characters who purport to have filled medieval roads? If so the campaign map can really become way too overcrowded.

You can create new agents, but not agent types as these are hardcoded. So theoretically you could make a heretic priest that spreads heresy, but it would still need to be given an existing unit type name like BISHOP. You could create a ocean-going dreadnought with 3 range, 9 attack, 9 defense, 4 speed, but it would still be a SHIP unit type.

Edit-> yeah, what caravel said.

[caravel]

I did mess with the faith propagation of buildings as well. I remember adding a heretical penalty to the brothels and taverns - increasing as the levels increased. The idea was that the happiness bonus would offset it somewhat as would the effect of the church - I also liked the idea of a province with the highest level tavern and brothel turning into a hive of vice and villainy meaning that large garrisons would be needed to keep it in check. The main reasoning behind this was that though a campaign starts with religious diversity, it's often easy enough for the player to convert provinces and ensure they stay converted. In the end it was all too complex and the AI was oblivious to it all - since then I've erred on the side of simplification rather than adding more toys and complex features which only the player can exploit...

If I had some spare time (and enough drank) I'd create an invisible, rebel faction only, "heretical pervert"... if only just to read "a heretical pervert has been caught and executed" every once in a while...

[drone]

Just curious, have you tried putting negative numbers in for the faith/zeal propagation for buildings or agents?

[caravel]

Haven't tried it as far as I can remember. When you consider that zeal/faith is a percentage thing, I'm not entirely sure what a negative value would do. When a Catholic Bishop is in a province which is 10% Catholic, 80% Orthodox 5% Muslim and 5% Pagan, he's slowly but surely turning the 90% of Orthodox/Muslim/Pagan to Catholic. If it's negative, then he's turning Catholics into what? Without even testing it I'd say that negative numbers would do the same as zero... but it needs to be tested (though if you delve through the archives perhaps someone has).

[drone]

Maybe a negative faith value would just decrease other existing bonuses down towards zero. I was mainly thinking about zeal though, your brothel/tavern idea might work better reducing zeal than increasing heresy.

edit-> of course, you can't affect zeal with buildings...

[LordK9]

This being a historical (sort of) game, that the beliefs of the times should be at least (and maybe they were) considered. Not sure about the Catholic belief on drinking then but prostitutes were considered good thing and thought to make marriages happier so negative zeal or the increased crime may not be historically realistic. I think the religion against drinking thing was more of a Anabaptist/fundamentalist thing starting during the reformation.

[caravel]

This being a historical (sort of) game, that the beliefs of the times should be at least (and maybe they were) considered. Not sure about the Catholic belief on drinking then but prostitutes were considered good thing and thought to make marriages happier so negative zeal or the increased crime may not be historically realistic. I think the religion against drinking thing was more of a Anabaptist/fundamentalist thing starting during the reformation.

You may well be correct about that, but it's not really a historical game, but loosely historically based. Increased crime from the tavern or brothel is "realistic" within the parameters of the game itself. In game terms there are a few ways of representing this:

1) So called "Negative Income" - i.e. money lost to corruption and crime
2) Propagate heresy - i.e. people are less interested in religion - not keeping to the scriptures, etc, etc.

Negative provincial loyalty would not work well, as the brothel line already give a bonus from the first level due to the "entertainment effect". It could be applied to the tavern but then they'd just negate each other, due to how their tech trees are tied together.

The scum of the earth, hang out at both establishments, so I would say it's entirely feasible to have a small trickle of both heresy and a negative income for both, or e.g. heresy for the tavern and negative income from the brothel (i.e. corrupt officials. It's interesting as it's a "trade off" scenario.

[Brandy Blue]

This being a historical (sort of) game, that the beliefs of the times should be at least (and maybe they were) considered. Not sure about the Catholic belief on drinking then but prostitutes were considered good thing and thought to make marriages happier so negative zeal or the increased crime may not be historically realistic. I think the religion against drinking thing was more of a Anabaptist/fundamentalist thing starting during the reformation.

AFAIK the Catholic church considered all sex outside of marrage sinful, including prostitution. They did, however, consider going to a prostitute better than seducing (or raping) a nice Catholic girl or a married woman, so prostitution was often tolerated, and even used as a means of church revenue. (The Bishop of Winchester owned brothels.) It seems pretty wierd from our point of view, but made some kind of logical sense in terms of the assumptions made at the time.

AFAIK, drinking was not considered a problem, but drinking excessively was.

Still, if you want to talk history, I see no reason to link brothels and taverns with heresy. In fact, the Cathar "heresy" (which emphasized purity) might have objected to taverns and brothels more than the Catholic church did. Brothels and taverns as a means to stamp out heresy? :)

[caravel]

Maybe a negative faith value would just decrease other existing bonuses down towards zero. I was mainly thinking about zeal though, your brothel/tavern idea might work better reducing zeal than increasing heresy.

edit-> of course, you can't affect zeal with buildings...

On occasions you get that anomaly where a province is e.g. 99% orthodox and 1% nothing... I saw that recently. In that case it did eventually go to 100%, but not through normal conversion. As I recall the GH invaded (it was Kiev) and then I forgot all about it, but when I checked again some time after retaking the province it was back to 100%.

So it's either some bug or it may prove that negative faith could work... It may also be that it's a fraction and thus cannot be represented (e.g. 99.9% Orthodox and 0.1% Pagan)... or it may be that it's the result of a bug which has left 1% without any faith and that priests and religious buildings cannot convert those who are of no faith (this makes sense if you think about it) - but something does correct it - possibly the change in ownership of the province.

In STW there was only one faith - Christianity - and priests and churches would propagate it. Emissaries and Buddhist temples would impact it negatively, so they probably used a negative value. So it would be interesting to see if in MTW a province could be e.g. 90% catholic and 10% nothing - if the same code from Shogun still remains.

[Gilrandir]

If I had some spare time (and enough drank) I'd create an invisible, rebel faction only, "heretical pervert"... if only just to read "a heretical pervert has been caught and executed" every once in a while...

I wonder what methods of execution would be used? Would the powers-that-be stick to the old eye for eye approach to punish the perverts?

[Plato]

It also depends what sort of brothel is being represented. English bagnios were bath-houses and so played a useful role in sanitation. However, cleanliness wasn't necessarily next to godliness.

I also liked the idea of a province with the highest level tavern and brothel turning into a hive of vice and villainy meaning that large garrisons would be needed to keep it in check.

I'd have thought that's more likely to provide a steady stream of customers to both establishments.

I do concur with you that high-level establishments should have a negative impact on income - a few well-placed bribes will mean the competition gets taken down a few pegs.

[caravel]

It's a game...

[Brandy Blue]

It's a game...

How dare you? Its a way of life, a love interest and probably a religion as well. Also, when history and MTW disagree, you may take it for granted that the historians have erred.

[Axalon]

It's a game...

As if Plato (or anybody else) did not know its a game...

- A

[caravel]