Ambitious Rebels

[Dellathane]

I'm currently playing a Viking campaign and it's been quite an emotional experience. As the Welsh I've had the great king Cardoch I who united wales, built a great navy to protect his people from the Vikings and established a dynasty on the isle of Manau to assert his lordship over the seas. Manau had the most magnificent huts the British Isles had ever seen, his lands were rich and his swords strong. Then the land (and I) sighed as it witnessed the decline of his line into violent madmen, as all the while the Saxons gained power.
A dreadful war ensued that nearly wiped out the welsh. At it's climax, when I thought all was lost, there was a rebellion amongst all the titled men still left and the king lost his throne to his uncle. Despite being mad himself King Howell III defeated the infamously cowardly Saxon king in three great battles against the Saxon hoardes, until the golden haired daemon was cornered at the tip of Wales and finally slain in battle. Having no heirs the Saxons all turned into rebels and I could breath again.

Good times (minus the couple of thousand dead on my side alone)

Anyway there was me hoping to rebuild peacefully with the allies my new found influence has bought me, when a couple of turns later one of the huge Rebel stacks in Devon attacks Cornwall. Not all of it, the army split and sent a smallish force (still 400 men) to attack my sole surviving faction heir no less (he repelled them, just).
I didn't know rebels could be so proactive.
Has anyone seen this behaviour before? Do rebels ever attack the AI, or even each other?

(sorry about the long post but I couldn't resist a little narrative)

[LordK9]

I haven't been playing long but, yes, I have seen this a few times. Usually I was already at war with the rebels, though.

[Dellathane]

I never had, then again rebels don't tend to last long in most games I play. This lot are as powerful as the smaller nations though. Just saw a rebel group called "the Strythclaids" (or something) attack and take a province near them from the vikings. The army in this new province kept the name " the Strythclaids". I'm looking forward to dealing with a rebel kingdom. Shame you can't have proper diplomacy with them though. Next question of course is, is it possible for a province to rebel against rebels?

[Gilrandir]

In all my years of playing (it is about 10) I have had rebels attacking me only once which gave me quite a shock. I had been brought to think that rebels are timid guys who never attack and try to leave the province when attacked by a superior force if they have another adjacent province belonging to them. But this attack taught me to keep an eye on them.

[Dellathane]

I had been brought to think that rebels are timid guys who never attack

Exactly. I'm still not sure that they build or reinforce their own troops, but on recent evidence I must assume that they do. Maybe it's limited funds that generally stops them. Perhaps we should found a Rebel Rights Movement, so that we can put an end to the destruction of these deep, complex societies

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

I have definitely seen rebels attack into adjacent non-rebel provinces. Never seen a seaborne rebel invasion, though.

I'm under the impression that the game treats all rebels as a single faction. So I do not think rebels will attack rebels in the normal run of the game. I'm qualifying that statement 'cos of what can happen when a faction reappearance takes place and rebels 'convert' to faction troops and then turn on their erstwhile comrades.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[LordK9]

I don't believe (but have no way of confirming or disproving) that they are treated as one entity. Why? If you look closely, rebels are marked differently on the map. Sometimes several provinces are marked the same but others will be marked differently.

[Plato]

Next question of course is, is it possible for a province to rebel against rebels?

If that was to happen, I'd guess the most likely reason would be religious. Imagine a small Christian force, whose king has just died without heirs, in an Islamic province.

Alternatively, perhaps someone could check what happens when a large number of Spies infiltrate rebel territory.

[Dellathane]

Thinking about it wouldn't be possible. Rebel Provinces always have 100% loyalty don't they. The designers must have had problems with rebels rebelling against themselves.

On a different note, one way to prove whether all rebels are made equal is if you have two different rebel groups in adjacent provinces, and one is attacked and elects to retreat. If the army can retreat into the other rebel group's province, is that a proof (to 5 sigma or more, obviously) that the rebels are all the same? If they are I'm very glad the designers still went to the trouble of giving them distinct names, even if it means nothing.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Alternatively, perhaps someone could check what happens when a large number of Spies infiltrate rebel territory.

Hi

In the later version of MTW only one spy counts towards reducing loyalty.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[Trapped in Samsara]

I don't believe (but have no way of confirming or disproving) that they are treated as one entity. Why? If you look closely, rebels are marked differently on the map. Sometimes several provinces are marked the same but others will be marked differently.

Hi

I'm pretty certain that if you attack a rebel province you will find that you are 'at war' with all rebel provinces which will be demonstrated by the fact that no rebel factions/provinces will trade with you.

Also, .conan. allows you to take control of all rebels.

[https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...val-Total-War]

I suspect that making all rebels a single faction is a mechanism aimed at simplifying their control by the AI. But that's pure speculation on my part.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[LordK9]

You know, thinking about it, I have seen rebels rebel against rebels of sorts. A power is eliminated resulting in a new master. There is a revolt producing rebels. An old faction reappears there. OK, not truly a rebel as they have a major nation insignia but they are still rebelling against the new masters - the rebels.

Since I am rather new at this, I've never seen it happen: if the rebels win a civil war, what happens? Do they simply become the major power?

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

I think this article shows that the rebels are effectively one faction:

https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/index.php/MTW_Rebels

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[drone]

The rebels are all one faction (and you can play them with the .conan. command Victor mentioned). You can have good fun playing them, you tend to run out of money quickly, but you don't have to worry about happiness and new troops pop up in interesting locations.

The rebel faction is always the first one specified in the startpos file. The rebel names seen on the map are customized for each province.

[daigaku]

Hi @Dellathane again,

the point is, as far my experience goes, that if you eliminate a dynasty(?), the rest becoming rebel, they TEND to attack you, still being the men you fought when killing their royal line. If you still had some troops in regions turning rebel after killing the last heir/king, you´re at war with all rebels on the map as well (if you weren´t already). Nice chance to bribe a few good units ;-)) and take over the regions formerly owned by your enemies.....

greetings daigaku

[Gilrandir]

I don't believe (but have no way of confirming or disproving) that they are treated as one entity. Why? If you look closely, rebels are marked differently on the map. Sometimes several provinces are marked the same but others will be marked differently.

There is a simple proof. When you attack the rebels first, you are asked if you are sure you want to attack this province belonging to rebels. Before attacking every next rebel province this question does not pop up, so you may assume you are at war with all/any rebels. The only exception is when you get an auto cease-fire with rebels (for the conditions of it see elsewhere). Then any new invasion of the rebel province is preceded by the above-mentioned message.

[LordK9]

OK, now you bring something else to mind: what controls auto ceasefires? Several times I've been at war with another kingdom only to find a while later that we are at peace. No notice; it just happens.

As for the topic subject, I based my belief on flimsy evidence. I'm now convinced that my assumption was wrong. I did notice all the things mentioned but it didn't click in my head.

[Gilrandir]

OK, now you bring something else to mind: what controls auto ceasefires? Several times I've been at war with another kingdom only to find a while later that we are at peace. No notice; it just happens.

The conditions are: you are not to have any contacts with the faction in question - no agents on its territory, no common borders, no ships at its shores. Plainly speaking, you are not to see any of the faction on the map. Then in some short time (two or three turns - I'm not sure how long it takes) you will not see this faction's shield on the panel where your allies and enemies are sported.

[LordK9]

Ah, makes sense. The Sicilians attacked and won Naples and it took me some time to get my navy built up enough to chain them for an invasion. The Italians attacked a fleet and it took me some time to get my war fleet there (Corsica/Sardinia). In VI, it happened a lot with the Vikings.

[ferdi]

in viking mod it happens more then "normal mt" or "xl mod".
they attack if u are in war with rebels, and if they outnumbered.(so sure to win)

[drone]

Welcome to the Org, ferdi!

[Axalon]

Some remarks...

Rebels are in effect one faction. The various names and colours are basically cosmetics and little else that creates the illusion that there are several and separate rebel factions. I don't know for sure, but I doubt that there are any rebels elsewhere more ambitious and feisty then ones we can find in Redux. The RX-rebels also prove several points discussed here and in many ways outlines what indeed is possible within the MTW-engine and that framework. In Redux (RXB1003)...

• Rebels do Seaborne invasions (then the AI draws troops from wherever available, multiple provinces)
• Rebels do regularly build troops, and can have serious armies
• Rebels do frequently attack the Player (when at war)
• Rebels do frequently attack other AI-factions (when at war)
• Rebels do frequently build buildings (cannot build forts or farmlands)
• Rebels rarely ever run out of cash/florins.
• Rebels frequently build ships (and plenty of them if unchecked).
• Rebels operate and work as 1 faction in effect.
• Rebels can very well be a very real and serious factor in the game somehow (usually are).
• Rebels are able to kill factions and regularly do so - this may include the player-faction as well.

This is the reality found in Redux. Evidently, that reality is very different from the one we get in raw MTW, while many things are hardcoded about rebels in the engine it also clearly shows that several things are indeed possible to be very, very different from the usual passive experience found in raw MTW (or stuff heavily dependent on the CA standard designs).

Yes, in raw MTW rebels are basically some timid unserious rabble as already suggested, agreed. One might say that they in raw MTW more or less works as some passive place-holder for a region while a "regular faction" (slowly) get ready to take control over that province - generally speaking. It is hardly an active force in raw MTW like it is in Redux (and possibly, in some other mod I don't know about). The point is, it does not have too be that way, but then we must also then be prepared to abandon raw MTW or any close clones as there is no other way to escape that very circumstance. The culprit here are the CA standard-designs in MTW and it is those that has too be (extensively) changed if we really do want more dangerous and active (functional) rebels. As long as we stick with raw MTW, then we will also get that timid rabble it provides as rebels, as simple as that. There is no way around it. Either we will acknowledge or deny that fact.

I for one acknowledge it.

- A

[LordK9]

Is it conceivable to mod the rebels as independent factions rather then as one big blob, ie, in affect, making them the same as any other AI faction? To my way of thinking, that'd be way cool.

[drone]

You could create different "rebels", essential unplayable factions. The problem is the faction limit (32 max, including the faction 0 rebels which would still exist), so you couldn't make many of them. And if they were small, they would quickly be gobbled up and you would be stuck with the standard rebel faction by mid-game (but maybe with some reemergences). Quite a few mods replaced some starting rebels with new factions, but they need to be balanced so they have a chance for survival.

[LordK9]

Yeah, I suppose they'd be just another Denmark; just sitting there. Still, that's already what they do except from what I read above about the Redux mod. Thinking about it, it already happens with the Burgundians.

[drone]

There are a couple of quick mods you can make to increase the activity of the tiny factions. Of the top of my head, you can change the AI behavior, and you can make the bodyguard units unbuildable but with no upkeep. One of the problems with the Danes is that they quickly end up with 6 Royal Knight units, and if they don't expand quickly they will run out of money and just stagnate.

[Gilrandir]

Yes, in raw MTW rebels are basically some timid unserious rabble as already suggested, agreed. One might say that they in raw MTW more or less works as some passive place-holder for a region while a "regular faction" (slowly) get ready to take control over that province - generally speaking. It is hardly an active force in raw MTW.

Logically, they should be the way they are in raw MTW. Rebels are supposed to be a band of anarchists who rather destroy and plunder than build, train and have a kind of a state which they seem to do in Redux. At least, it is what I picture when I hear the word "rebels".

[Plato]

Bah! That's just feudal / monarchist propaganda.

Tribal societies were doing just fine during the Dark Ages, with trade and their own culture. They didn't want to work as slaves for someone else's benefit (serfdom); nor did the village-clan-tribe system system reach a pinnacle in just one man (kingdom).

These freedom-loving people weren't warmongers, they just wanted to avoid being subjucated. Unfortunately, they were trampled by royalty and the lick-spittle chroniclers that accompanied them.

Just because they didn't feel the need to demonstrate their martial prowess, raise vanity structures or invent taxation, there's no reason to denigrate them.

Oh, and aristocrats do more plundering than any "rebels".

[drone]

So that's why rebels are so passive! The attack orders never can get ratified by the 2/3rds majority vote in the bi-weekly meeting.

[Gilrandir]

Bah! That's just feudal / monarchist propaganda.

Tribal societies were doing just fine during the Dark Ages, with trade and their own culture. They didn't want to work as slaves for someone else's benefit (serfdom); nor did the village-clan-tribe system system reach a pinnacle in just one man (kingdom).

As soon as they get a leader who will determine their united policy and goad them to a battle they may be equated to a faction (MTW-wise, not in the real world).