Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

[HoreTore]

A misleading label, in my opinion. Much of the working class in in poverty, and the middle-class is in fact rich by any standard that isn't coming from a perspective of considerable wealth. If you want Congress to get the point, make them live like the lowest common denominator for a month or so. Hell, that should be like a rite of initiation for politicians--you could even make a reality TV show about it.

The US has no concept of classes. When a factory worker or plumber can call himself middle class, you know society is on the wrong path... Fear of the reds, I guess.

[drone]

The US has no concept of classes. When a factory worker or plumber can call himself middle class, you know society is on the wrong path... Fear of the reds, I guess.

Plumbers actually make good money.

[HoreTore]

Plumbers actually make good money.

Yes, the working class can make good money. As I said, the US has no concept of classes. A plumber is working class, no matter how much money you throw at him.

[HoreTore]

Every country has a concept of class, we just do it differently than Europeans. To say we don't have a concept of classes is just silly.

A plumber can call himself middle class. That's silly.

You're all terrified of being workers.

[HoreTore]

What kind of car you drive, what kind of neighborhood you live in, how you can afford to raise your family, the standard of medical care you recieve, whether or not eating out as a family at a restaurant is something you can even feasibly do, these are things that would indicate your class. What kind of work you do to achieve your standard of living is something pretty far down the ladder.

I like how your apparently some kind of authority on American society. When did you live here? How many different sides of America have you seen? Who's terrified of being workers? Most of the people I know would kill somebody to get a chance to go to trade school.

The bolded part shows you've got it all turned on its head. The means of production, ie. how you earn your living in your relation to those who contribute or benefit to that income, is what determins your class. Your cultural standing is largely irrelevant, though some like to use those factors to juggle you around your class(like saying "lower, upper, educated, etc" working/middle class).

[HoreTore]

That you think class is determined by sitting back and calculating some formula is pretty indicative of your class.

I'm a teacher, thus working class. Some like to say I'm part of the "educated working class".

I know the brits like to include family and social relations in their class defintions, and I see some sense in that, at least in the British context(not so much for more egaliatrian societies).

My defintions are the marxist definitions of class. I don't know where you got yours, but since they're obviously not marxist, they're wrong

[HoreTore]

That's my point. Your definitions come from a book, because you're part of the comfortable classes. Middle or upper middle, whatever. The reality is that class is determined by what you have control over and what you have access to. Wealth passes in and out of middle-class and even many wealthy families so fast that your old definitons of basing it on how they got the means is kind of outdated. Especially in America.

It's based on a tradition, the tradition which created the concept

[Tuuvi]

Yes, the working class can make good money. As I said, the US has no concept of classes. A plumber is working class, no matter how much money you throw at him.

If a plumber is self-employed and runs his own plumbing business is he still working class or is he a member of the bourgeoisie?

[HoreTore]

If a plumber is self-employed and runs his own plumbing business is he still working class or is he a member of the bourgeoisie?

Then he's moved up to middle class, the petty bourgeoisie. He owns his own means of production, but he is still forced to sell his labour on the market. If he opens a factory producing plumbing equipment, he's a capitalist.