House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

[rvg]

If the Supreme Court wasn't spineless and/or totally corrupt, Money would not equal speech in the most literal and democratically offensive way possible. No love for the supremes.

Can you back up this claim with something specific?

Which would be part of the problem. The President serves a 4-8 year term, so if every incoming president suddenly is faced with the facts of our secretive and perpetually growing national security apparatus, and that truth is enough to compromise said president's values, then I blame the apparatus. Obviously there's crap going on that shouldn't be going on, and we can't know about it because why, again? If its too damned sneaky and evil for the public to know about, then its a bad ing idea and should be done away with.

A state with no state secrets? Unlikely.

Not really. We've been spinning the wheels in this country for decades, and complacency is the enemy. Only the most ignorant bastard living under a rock is unaware of how corrupt our government is, and only a self-hating ignorant bastard is okay with it. I hope my generation tears this crap down, but more likely we'll just watch and laugh, like previous generations.

You're letting the emotions get the best of you over something that's as old as the civilization itself.

Outrage is maybe not the answer but indifference isn't either. But the first statement is nonsense if you believe in true democracy.

True democracy died with the ancient Athens.

Now don't get me wrong I don't believe democracy is the holy grail but if one believes in it (and the US believe that they are a democratic nation, no?) how can there be anything the people should not know? How can the people rule the country if they don't know what's going on?

People aren't entitled to know everything. Joe Blow down the road doesn't need to know specific details about the U.S. nuclear capability.

[TheLastDays]

People aren't entitled to know everything. Joe Blow down the road doesn't need to know specific details about the U.S. nuclear capability.

Why? Who said that? Whose decision is that?

[rvg]

Citizens United v. the FEC. That decision was as wrong as wrong decisions get.

Their reasoning is logical enough. What's your beef exactly?

This is the information age. Stupid axioms about something being as old as civilization itself ignores the fact that we live in an era of change and expanding possibilities. If the American people fail to try for a better option, the alternative is not for things to stay the same, but to get worse in a way that you don't foresee. What started with the Patriot Act and has continued (even thrived) under Obama's administration is the beginnings of a police state that threatens everything. Screw the rhetoric, look at the facts. The infrastructure is there, thanks to tax-payer dollars. We now live in a free society at the mercy of unelected spooks. Fuck that.

Bla bla bla big brother bla bla evil feds bla bla I must know everything the CIA knows, does, plans or thinks. You know what, no. NO. There are things you don't need to know.

Why? Who said that? Whose decision is that?

The state, thank God. It's common sense really.

[TheLastDays]

Their reasoning is logical enough. What's your beef exactly?

Bla bla bla big brother bla bla evil feds bla bla I must know everything the CIA knows, does, plans or thinks. You know what, no. NO. There are things you don't need to know.

The state, thank God. It's common sense really.

Alright, so who is "the state"? I thought that's the people... Now I do overreact to make a point, just to make that clear, but the problem is that today we experience an age where we move from a people that knew mostly about the state and therefore cared about it to a small elite that removes more and more from "necessary public knowledge" and thus creates their own secret society. The voter, who is supposed to decide the "future of the land" doesn't know what he needs to know to even make informed decisions.

And if I don't need to know everything the CIA does then why in the world are they allowed to know everything I do?

[rvg]

Alright, so who is "the state"? I thought that's the people...

The state is the people. At least the representative democracy is.

The voter, who is supposed to decide the "future of the land" doesn't know what he needs to know to even make informed decisions.

The average voter is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with a safety scissors, let alone something important.

And if I don't need to know everything the CIA does then why in the world are they allowed to know everything I do?

Because they're the CIA. The state has allowed them to do that.

[TheLastDays]

The average voter is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with a safety scissors, let alone something important.

Alright, now we're talking. So why does everyone still believe democracy is the way to go?

Because they're the CIA. The state has allowed them to do that.

Not my state.

[rvg]

Are you totally opposed to the idea of reforming the intelligence apparatus, rvg, or do you firmly believe that people should behave like sheep and just listen to their betters?

You're presenting me with a false dilemma.

[Montmorency]

True democracy died with the ancient Athens.

No, it died with the Germanic "barbarians".

But anyway, this is equivocation.

You're presenting me with a false dilemma.

What other options are there than: to reform, or not to reform?

Anyway, it's at least nice to know that they aren't wasting too much on trying to store all this data.

[drone]

Anyway, it's at least nice to know that they aren't wasting too much on trying to store all this data.

I wonder how high a price tag that new taxpayer-funded server farm in Utah has.

The only way the program will be shut down is when it is used to spy on a serving member of Congress for election dirty tricks. And this will happen eventually.

[Greyblades]

I'm presenting you with the real dilemma, going on in America, right now.

I think he means a false dichtomy, translation: he thinks the two options you said arent the only options.

[Gregoshi]

The state is the people. At least the representative democracy is.

The average voter is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with a safety scissors, let alone something important.

Impressive back-to-back comments.

[rvg]

Impressive back-to-back comments.

Look at Congress. Those clowns represent America.

[Papewaio]

General Petraeus.

Was found out by an email trail. Was it really the FBI who found this out or was it an NSA background check?

Was it legit or did someone in NSA have a score to settle with the CIA head?