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  1. #1
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc
    A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

    Groklaw just shut down. Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.
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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

    Groklaw just shut down. Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.
    yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    If there is an electronic device, assume the government has a key or back door to it.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...administrators
    No more Snowdens, no more whistleblowers is the goal.


    These, you may not have seen:
    http://www.albanytribune.com/1308201...-review-group/

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9780UY20130809


    And a portion of an opinion piece on moral relativism, dealing with this topic.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The Current Sales Pitch

    Just take a look at the attitude of the Obama Administration and the mainstream media towards Edward Snowden and his recent asylum approved by Russia.

    The White House, rather than admitting wrongdoing in its support for the NSA’s mass surveillance of American citizens without warrant, or even attempting to deny the existence of the PRISM program, is now instead trying to promote NSA spying as essential to our well being while wagging a finger of shame at Snowden and the Russian government for damaging their domestic spy network. Obama has lamented on Russia’s stance, stating that their thinking is “backwards.”#

    Did I miss something here? I’m no fan of the Russian oligarchy, but shouldn’t Obama and most of the NSA (let alone every other Federal alphabet agency) be sitting in a dark hole somewhere awaiting trial for violating the Constitution on almost every level? Yet, we are instead supposed to despise Snowden for exposing the crime they committed and distrust any country that happens to give him shelter?

    Due to public outcry, Obama has attempted to pacify critics by announcing plans to make NSA mass surveillance “more transparent”. First, I would like to point out that he did NOT offer to end NSA spying on Americans without warrant, which is what a President with any ounce of integrity would have done. Second, Obama’s calls for more transparency have come at the exact same time as the NSA announces its plans to remove 90 percent of its systems administrators to make sure another “Snowden incident” does not occur.

    Finally, when the public called for an investigation into the NSA and the Director of National Intelligence in the handling of the Snowden affair and the PRISM program, the White House appointed none other than James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, as part of the team that would "investigate" any wrongdoing.# The Obama Administration insists that Clapper, a documented liar who told Congress that the NSA was not involved in mass domestic spying, was not going to "head" the panel of investigators, even though a White House memo specifically named Clapper as the man who would form the so-called "independent group".# The White House still admits that Clapper will be involved in the process.
    So, just to reiterate, the people who perpetrated the criminal act of warrant-less surveillance on hundreds of millions of Americans, and who were caught red-handed lying about it, are now appointed to investigate their own crime.

    Does this sound like a government that plans on becoming “more transparent”?

    Ask yourself, would Obama have called for ANY transparency over the NSA whatsoever if Snowden had never come forward? Of course not! The exposure of the crime has led to lies and empty placation, nothing more.

    In the meantime, numerous other political miscreants have hit the media trail, campaigning for the NSA as well as other surveillance methods, bellowing to the rafters over the absolute necessity of domestic spy programs. Fifteen years ago, the government would have tried to sweep all of this under the rug. Today, they want to acclimate us to the inevitability of the crime, stating that we had better get used to it.

    Their position? That Snowden’s whistleblowing put America at risk. My questions is, how? How did Snowden’s exposure of an unConstitutional and at bottom illegal surveillance program used against hundreds of millions of innocent Americans do our country harm? Is it the position of the White House that the truth is dangerous, and deceit is safety?

    I suspect this is the case considering the recent treatment of military whistleblower Bradley Manning, who has been accused by some to have “aided Al Qaeda’s recruiting efforts” through his actions.# How did Manning do this? By releasing information, including battlefield videos, that were hidden from the public containing proof of U.S. war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Perhaps I’m just a traditionalist and not hip to modern diplomatic strategy, but I would think that if you don’t want to be blamed for war crimes, then you probably shouldn’t commit war crimes. And, if you don’t want the enemy to gain new recruits, you should probably avoid killing innocent civilians and pissing off their families (there is also ample evidence suggesting that the CIA has done FAR more deliberate recruiting for Al Qaeda than Bradley Manning could have ever accomplished on accident). Just a thought.
    So, to keep track - U.S. government funds and trains Al Qaeda, but is the good guy. U.S. government commits war crimes, but is the good guy. U.S. government hides the truth from the American people, but is the good guy. Bradley Manning exposes war crimes, and is the bad guy. Moral relativism at its finest. Moving on...



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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)
    Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?
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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?
    of course (and you can buy them off Ebay)- these do require direct access however to the onboard computer - ie you have to be inside the car...

    but this of course brings us to ... why - what do you think you will get by hacking a car which you couldn't get off a smartphone which is likely do go where ever the driver goes anyway?

    The only people hacking cars are Researchers with too much time and an axe to grind about how insecure everything is...

    now back onto the matter at hand...


    Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

    in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

    I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

    I am utterly unworried by their or anyone else's ability to track online information - personally I am more worried about the flagrant abuses of the laws handed to them which allow them to legally gather this all.

    The best example is going on right now with the British Police detaining the partner of the News Reporter who writes on the Snowden case for the Guardian - the facts are out and it seem we have given our Police the ability to detain ANYBODY at an airport for 9 hours, finger printing them, seizing their DNA, taking any luggage they see fit (for 7 days apparently) and the only justification they need is "they might be carrying anything which could help terrorism"...

  6. #6

    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard
    I don't know, going by this they could very well be "touching" pretty much all the data of consequence on the entire Internet.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  7. #7
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    The EFF sued for a 2011 FISA court opinion, and won. The phrase "criminal" was used. Shame nothing will come of it.

    In case you haven't heard of them, donate to the EFF. They are the ACLU of the internet.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

    in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

    I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard
    You think that's impossible? Tell that to Google.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    You think that's impossible? Tell that to Google.
    Google is only dealing with pages + social media - no emails, no instant messaging and no data transfers

    And it doesn't even try to look at the "dark" net.

    Add to this Google isn't "Live" - if you put a page up now it takes several days to appear in Google (actually better now than it used to be because the Google spider crawls sites more often now)

    The shear volume of data acquired in a minute would take even the fastest machines a few hours to index and sort - this created a massive "lag" in the data being acquired and when it can be consumed.

    It is the legal framework and oversight we should be railing against here not the actual data acquisition.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    Google is only dealing with pages + social media - no emails, no instant messaging and no data transfers

    And it doesn't even try to look at the "dark" net.

    Add to this Google isn't "Live" - if you put a page up now it takes several days to appear in Google (actually better now than it used to be because the Google spider crawls sites more often now)

    The shear volume of data acquired in a minute would take even the fastest machines a few hours to index and sort - this created a massive "lag" in the data being acquired and when it can be consumed.

    It is the legal framework and oversight we should be railing against here not the actual data acquisition.

    What? What is Google Mail, or Gmail? Google Glass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

    Google Earth, pay services give you real time pictures too.

    Some of the developments are pretty depressing. Some recent Apple patens for example. Sensing vibrations of their device to detect your mode of travel, switching on microphone and camera to determine your surroundings. Also remote access for key holders, not owners of devices, to turn off or on cell phones and their various components, you know, cameras and microphones, or access your data remotely. They said it was for venues like movies but said it had law enforcement applications too.

    You know, like not being able to photograph or film cops, or for government, turn off all phones in a geographic area.

    University of Washington has figured out how to read gps locations for phones without batteries in them just by using background RF and electromagnetic energies.

    Remotely accessing home WIFI or Smart Meters, for that matter can allow someone to determine where in a home you are and how many people are there and to an extent what they are doing.

    I don’t know what others think but having electronic devices with abilities I don’t want them to have, even though we have to pay for them, without being able to disable these functions is just wrong. There is no opt out for any of them, from home computers to RFID chips.

    Which reminds me of a Google-Motorola Division paten for RFID vitamins. Your stomach acid works as a battery with them.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 08-22-2013 at 11:42.


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