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Thread: Pikes a disappointment

  1. #1

    Default Pikes a disappointment

    Im looking for solutions to fix them,playing MTW 2.1.Is there any way to mod their rank bonus somehow or to make them alot stronger as a group without altering their individual stats?

  2. #2
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    You can do a couple of things to make them stronger, but what specifically are you not happy with? The biggest issue with pikes is that maximizing for the rank bonus makes the formation too narrow, and attacking units wrap around unless there are supporting units adjacent in the line. The whole army formation ends up compact and leaves you vulnerable to flanking moves. What unit size setting are you playing?
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Well i play standard and i tried a couple of things but still i did not manage to get them as i wanted.And what i have in mind is that IMHO Vanilla Pikemens as efectiveness should be somewhere between Feudal Sergeants and Chivalric Sergeants,or better said closer to Chivalric Sergeants but not better since Chivalric Sergeants are more expensive.As I did some duels in custom battles and for my surprise i found that even Feudal Sergeants outwin them(not always but still more than 50% times).My conclusion is that Pikemens are underpower by alot.
    As for start i did mod their requirements meaning to get them at TownWatch3(Citadel Tech) give them also the chance to get +1 valor with County Militia(Fortress Tech) .Since all spear gets their +1 valor bonus at Master SpearMaker i wanted the Pikemens to be same.
    But i think this still is not enough and spears still are in advantage as combat efectiveness so this is the tricky part where i dont know what to do with them.Giving them better melee stats is wrong and not an option for me since i want their power to come from their group and from rank bonus and not as individuals.
    Raising their number per group is another solution that i got in mind since this will allow more endurance for group meaning rank bonus for an increased amount of time as 120 per group as 20x6(keeping them in 6 ranks deep is optimal) and also 20 men wide is less than those of spears(25 men wide i keep them in 4 rank deep).While i think this could be a good solution for my problem this solution has 1 issue,meaning raising numbers of men will make much harder times for missile troups to hurt them(since their ammo is limited) and missile troups should be their nr1 counter and i want to keep this reality.
    So as you see any solution i try to fix them raise another issues.Ideal would be to give them more strength from their rank bonus but i dont think this is possible(bonus from ranks could be hardcoded and not available for mod ....dunno for sure) so any tips or advice how to increase combat efectivenes of pikes without making them too OP or UP are welcomed.
    Last edited by Jihad; 10-19-2013 at 07:03.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Why not increase their numbers, like you said, and also decrease their armor? IIRC, armor value has no impact on melee, but does against missles.

    I suppose another solution would be to make a new unit called "pikemen" but actually arm them with spears. You could then give them stats somewhere between feudal sergant and chiv sergeant.

    Let us know if you find anything that works. I also feel that pike units are undervalued, but have never done anything about it.
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  5. #5
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    My main complaints are that they are terribly vulnerable to missile fire and as was sais, don't seem to do more damage then spears. They are a narrow purpose unit - basically cavalry killers - but supposedly four ranks fight rather then the two of spears so one would think they'd be twice as affective. I generally don't build them as they seem a waste.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Yes Pikemen are definetevely underpowered as units in MTW,meaning there are other units that do their job better in every aspect possible, offensively(halberds)and defensively(spears) while having less requirements and coming much earlier.Pikes is undervalued weapon in MTW and we all know that this weapons can be a terrible weapon since ancient times aka "sarrisa" and the famous phalanx.In theory a pike wall should be a a devastating force hard to penetrate frontaly(even by swords) and their major weaknes should be flanking or by missiles(since they use both hands for handling the heavier and longer spike wich also means no shield for a minimal arrow protection).
    Pikemens in MTW can be taken down by any other decent foot infantry wich is ridicoulos.Realistic speaking would be almost impossible for spears or any other much shorter weapon to deal with a dense pike wall as frontal duel.
    As final solutions i think im satisfied for now with how i moded and i think they are much better in holding their ground and what i did is following:
    -raised their number to 120(vanilla pikemen) 114(swiss versions)
    -lowered 1 armor point from swiss pikemen versions
    -made vanilla pikemens to be available at Town Watch3(Citadel tech)
    Last edited by Jihad; 10-19-2013 at 07:46.

  7. #7
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Referring to your earlier post: I think that pikemen should be better at killing opponents then chiv. sergeants even if less expensive as the chivs are worth the extra money for their staying power and better resistance to arrows.

  8. #8
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Quote Originally Posted by LordK9 View Post
    They are a narrow purpose unit - basically cavalry killers - but supposedly four ranks fight rather then the two of spears so one would think they'd be twice as affective.
    I guess I can offer some more purposes for pikes - bridge defending (and attacking) and wallbreach defending.
    Moreover, they can be used in natural bottlenecks - openings between two forests or low ground between two steep-shouldered hills.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 10-20-2013 at 14:29.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Pikemens are excellent at holding ground vs horses(better than spears or polearms),but most people(including me) prefer an all arround unit that can deal better vs infantry as well so this is the major bane of pikes since the only thing where they excel is vs horse and vs everything else they are horrible(realistic speaking they should be more than that but we speak about how are they ingame atm).
    Even vs bridges defenses or narrow terrain places poles or advanced spears are better(1 unit of CMAA,halberd,JHI,billmen,BI etc would not care if its bridge or not they will cut through pikemen like cuting butter).
    Last edited by Jihad; 10-21-2013 at 18:42.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Ummm... If you don't like the way pikes are in MTW - you mod 'em to something that suits you better... So, I guess your'e on the right track then, regardless of the changes you make. Despite what some people might think, CA-designs is not something holy and keeping the game "pure" has diddly value as such in my experience. Raw MTW has alot of problems, much by poor designs, and the only way to solve that is to get rid of those designs causing the problem(s) - whatever it might be. I keep telling myself this is obvious stuff, but sometimes I truly wonder as look upon comments/posts made on these boards. Anyways, good luck with da pikes (just thinking out loud here)...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; 10-24-2013 at 05:27. Reason: Wha?

  11. #11
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Did cegorach change pikes significantly for Pike & Musket?
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    I gave up upon pikemens,their issue is at their core meaning rank bonus.Spear have partially same problem but are much better simply because require less ranks and they gain enough wide length and defend better vs wrapping arround.But even spears i fell are kinda weak since 1 unit of SI/CS loose to 2 ranks MS(300 vs 150 florins).
    Also i agree that pikes are not totally useless and they could indeed be used in strategies where involves swords as core of their armies.Since swords are weak vs knights a sword-pike combo would be a v good strategy i supose.
    Last edited by Jihad; 10-24-2013 at 15:22.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    Did cegorach change pikes significantly for Pike & Musket?
    Yeah, he did (he made localized versions, varied stats etc.) Why do you ask?

    - A

  14. #14
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    I was curious if he had found any unique ways of improving how pikes perform. I never played P&M (not a fan of the period), but I know he put a lot of work into it.
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  15. #15
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pikes a disappointment

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    I was curious if he had found any unique ways of improving how pikes perform. I never played P&M (not a fan of the period), but I know he put a lot of work into it.
    Not unique. Just high stats, a lot of armor and high morale IIRC. The best of them are just like WWI tanks. Very slow but hard to beat even when attacked by multiple units from all directions. But you have plenty of different gunpowder units at your disposal, especially regimental cannons which shred them to pieces easily (they shot grenades).
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