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Thread: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming
    United Nations climate chief Christiana Figueres said that democracy is a poor political system for fighting global warming. Communist China, she says, is the best model.

    China may be the world’s top emitter of carbon dioxide and struggling with major pollution problems of their own, but the country is “doing it right” when it comes to fighting global warming says Figueres.

    “They actually want to breathe air that they don’t have to look at,” she said. “They’re not doing this because they want to save the planet. They’re doing it because it’s in their national interest.”
    What a blisteringly stupid thing to say. It's not to say that the democratic west has had a spotless environmental record.... but to compare it to China? Really? Let's see what's going on in Beijing today....
    Air pollution readings spiked across China's capital Beijing on Thursday, prompting residents to don air masks and offices and homes to put electric air purifiers on overdrive.

    Commuters across Beijing found themselves cloaked in a thick, gray haze as air pollution monitors across the city registered readings over 20 times the recommended exposure levels suggested by the World Health Organization (WHO).
    Oh yeah, they know how to do environmentalism in China... for sure. I'm not even going to bother highlighting the environmental atrocities that occurred under the Soviet brand of communism....

    Here's a link to the story from Bloomberg, in case people don't like the first source.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    oh lol, can somebody explain to her what smog is.

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    oh lol, can somebody explain to her what smog is.
    I thought Smog was another environment hoax?

    Jesting aside, the statement is like saying "Nazi's were better at fighting crime than a Western Democracy". All those pesky human rights sure makes it more difficult at locking away those innocents.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    This is hard to respond to on an intellectual level.

    Obviously she is no deep thinker. Not at all a well considered opinion.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Maybe she just wants to get some attention.
    So far her statement seems ridiculous but China hasn't been trying to improve their environmental record for a long time I think. It's possible that they manage to change quite a lot but whether they become better than a democracy where the people actually support efforts to reduce environmental impacts is questionable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

    Yeah, that's right, China is still planning to build a lot of NPPs.

    As for the point of the Nazis or other dictators being better at fighting crime, well yes, they are. The question is whether that's worth the tradeoffs but on some isolated issues other forms of government may actually be better than a certain selection of democracies, then again they may also be worse than others.


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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    We all know the Soviets were great conservationists!
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming
    What a blisteringly stupid thing to say. It's not to say that the democratic west has had a spotless environmental record.... but to compare it to China? Really? Let's see what's going on in Beijing today....
    Oh yeah, they know how to do environmentalism in China... for sure. I'm not even going to bother highlighting the environmental atrocities that occurred under the Soviet brand of communism....

    Here's a link to the story from Bloomberg, in case people don't like the first source.
    The overarching point which you seem to miss as the second you saw the word "communist" connected with something positive sent your brain into overdrive is:

    "China recognized the problem and is making an effort. US and some other western democracies refuse to even recognize the problem."

    Pretty clear if you read the whole article, rather than just the part you quoted.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    They are fighting smog.

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    "China recognized the problem and is making an effort. US and some other western democracies refuse to even recognize the problem."

    Pretty clear if you read the whole article, rather than just the part you quoted.
    It's pretty clear that that's the same ill-informed argument that she's making, yes.
    Since 2008, China's CO2 output has grown by approximately 30%. In the US it has declined 5%.

    But hey, China recognizes the problem.
    Forget that people can't even go outside and breathe the air in their capital city some days.... they recognize the problem.

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    (Fracking is ruining all our freaking water)
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    Last edited by Xiahou; 01-16-2014 at 19:03.
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    There is a salient point here - the Chinese want to breathe clean air and that is their reason to cut pollutants.

    In the US and elsewhere they are still having an argument about "Global Warming" and "Climate Change" when any idiot knows you don't defecate where you eat. We eat all over the planet, and we defecate all over it too. We are doing BAD THINGS that are making our children ill - whether that includes raising the temperature by a degree or too is basically irrelevant.
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    And yet, China and other communist regimes have abhorrent environmental records while the rest of the world has been largely cleaning up its act. Yet China is somehow a model for environmentalism.

    You don't defecate where you eat. You defecate where you grow your crops.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 01-16-2014 at 22:04.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    It's pretty clear that that's the same ill-informed argument that she's making, yes.
    Since 2008, China's CO2 output has grown by approximately 30%. In the US it has declined 5%.

    But hey, China recognizes the problem.
    Forget that people can't even go outside and breathe the air in their capital city some days.... they recognize the problem.
    Percentages by themselves are meaningless unless you frame them in proper context. If my business used to produce 1 unit of CO2 and now it produces 2, that's 100% increase. If your used to produce 100 and now it produces 95, it's 5% decrease. So, kudos to you, but your business still pollutes more than mine.

    Important fact, however, is that USA is fully industrialized nation and China is still industrializing. You're blaming China for doing now what you've already done in the last century. First ideas of mass tourism actually appeared in 19th century England as a way for people to escape pollution of big cities full of industry. By now the fully industrialized west has learned and has enough wealth to move the heavy polluters away from main population centers. China's still got a lot of catching up to do.

    It's quite normal that a country which is rapidly industrializing also has bigger increase in CO2 emission. China's CO2 emission per capita is still far, far behind that of USA.

    Just to be clear, I don't think that China does it out of goodness of their heart, they are interested in reducing pollution in their own cities and reducing their reliance on fossil fuels which they have to import.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 01-16-2014 at 22:06.

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    So what part of that makes China and communism overall an ideal form of government to fight global warming?
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Getting things done:
    Chinese media: smog has at least five benefits

    Much of China has been suffering through choking smog in recent weeks, which has hampered daily activities and forced the closure of schools. In response, state broadcaster CCTV published a list of reasons documenting the benefits of smog. Yes, benefits.

    A Time magazine translator indicated the following CCTV rationalizations for smog:

    1. It unifies the Chinese people.
    2. It makes China more equal.
    3. It raises citizen awareness of the cost of China’s economic development.
    4. It makes people funnier.
    5. It makes people more knowledgeable (of things like meteorology and the English word haze).

    That's some interesting rationalization. Following that line of thinking, hurricanes also unify people by forcing them to leave their isolated homes and gather in collectives. Tornadoes give people a sense of the power of nature. Wildfires place everyone on an equal footing by burning everyone's possessions to the ground. See? The problem isn't nature, the problem is you.
    Oh, smog also strengthens the national defense:
    The Global Times, which is published by the Communist Party's official People's Daily, noted that smog has a defensive benefit. “Smog may affect people’s health and daily lives," the newspaper wrote, "but on the battlefield, it can serve as a defensive advantage in military operations."
    Last edited by Xiahou; 01-16-2014 at 22:30.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    So what part of that makes China and communism overall an ideal form of government to fight global warming?
    They have a single central authority that decided to combat the issue, compared to US where you have a divide between two sides, one of which isn't sure what to do and the other thinks there is no spoon.

    Which part you don't understand?

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    China actually has goals and guidelines in environmental questions.

    They are also world leading in solar tech, and already plan for a world without oil.

    I'm no big fan of China, but from where I am standing, it sure looks like they do a damn better job than us in the west on these issues.

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    China actually has goals and guidelines in environmental questions.

    They are also world leading in solar tech, and already plan for a world without oil.

    I'm no big fan of China, but from where I am standing, it sure looks like they do a damn better job than us in the west on these issues.
    The cognitive dissonance in this line of thinking amazes me. Last I checked they're still building two coal-fired power plants a week. The air around their capital is often unbreathable with as many as 1.2 million deaths a year in the country linked to air pollution. Their CO2 emissions are continuing to skyrocket while ours are falling.

    Yet, they "do a damn better job" than the west?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 01-17-2014 at 19:18.
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    The cognitive dissonance in this line of thinking amazes me. Last I checked they're still building two coal-fired power plants a week. The air around their capital is often unbreathable with as many as 1.2 million deaths a year in the country linked to air pollution. Their CO2 emissions are continuing to skyrocket while ours is falling.

    Yet, they "do a damn better job" than the west?
    I know very little about this.

    But at least they acknowledge that there is a problem...

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    The cognitive dissonance in this line of thinking amazes me. Last I checked they're still building two coal-fired power plants a week. The air around their capital is often unbreathable with as many as 1.2 million deaths a year in the country linked to air pollution. Their CO2 emissions are continuing to skyrocket while ours are falling.

    Yet, they "do a damn better job" than the west?
    1.2 millions on 1.35 billions in China. 0.2 millions on 300 millions in US.

    In China it's 0.08%, in US 0.06%. Coupled with the fact that you're a few stages in industrial development ahead of them and that your heavy polluting industry has been moved away from population centers, nothing to write home about.

    China has the added problem of having a New York-sized city on every corner - more people concentration, more industry and traffic, more pollution. It's also partly a numbers game.

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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    We have gotten to the point of patting China on the back because they are merely trying to clean up the toxic wastelands in and around their cities. This is how much you all have taken liberal democracy for granted and resent it for the slow but methodical way it works.

    Anytime someone gives me the line "at least they're doing something", I wonder how much they would appreciate the homeless going around town robbing stores instead of just sitting around, waiting for change.
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    We have gotten to the point of patting China on the back because they are merely trying to clean up the toxic wastelands in and around their cities. This is how much you all have taken liberal democracy for granted and resent it for the slow but methodical way it works.

    Anytime someone gives me the line "at least they're doing something", I wonder how much they would appreciate the homeless going around town robbing stores instead of just sitting around, waiting for change.
    It's not our fault that China is simply a better country.
    The only place where people are happier according to official polls is North Korea.


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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    This thread lacks some nuance.

    Yes, China is undoubtedly one of the filthiest boys in the class. For most of its modern history, China has not paid any attention at all to the environment. They have polluted rivers, the air, their land and their people without any regard for the long term consequences, instead caring only about the short term material advancement of their people, particularly forcing through an industrialization process as well as increasing agricultural produce with the aim of self-sufficiency. The communist regime has seen enlightening the backwards farmer as well as ending China's historical hunger problem as their number one priority.

    This, however, is not what the person in the OP refers to. China swaps out its entire leadership at irregular intervals, and it is the effects of one such change she refers to. China's leadership consists of almost exclusively engineers. There are no people with business or communications degrees in the Chinese leadership, nor is there much of a military presence. This has changed the attitude of the Chinese leadership. Unlike western politicians, the Chinese politicians simply do not question a scientist. They have a hefty respect for scientific authority, and do not question it like ours do.

    "Global warming is a myth!", "The green lobby is looking to enrich themselves at the expense of the taxpayer!", "The world is getting colder, not warmer!" and such related nonsensical statements are regularly heard from our members of parliament. Unthinkable statements in China. The gap in attitude between west and east is enormous.

    Does this mean China is leading the race for green policies? Nope. They have changed their attitude, but they have not as of yet changed their actions. China is still the filthy boy in the class. The new attitude has not been converted into new practices. Yet.

    There is hope that they will convert their attitude into actual politics, and it is this hope the woman in the OP refers. She's jumping the ball quite a bit, but the situation is a bloody lot more nuanced than some of the posters here are letting on.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Chinese scientists have authority as long as what they report is in line with the concerns of leadership. If scientists advocated a course of action that threatened chinese economic growth, they would be ignored and reprimanded. Hence why China is deeply concerned with clean up after the fact instead of preventative measures, such as not building a coal plant every 2 days.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    This thread lacks some nuance.
    I just brought in the nuance by saying that China is only second to North Korea and not the first best country as some here would have you believe. That's enough nuance to put things into perspective.


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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Chinese scientists have authority as long as what they report is in line with the concerns of leadership. If scientists advocated a course of action that threatened chinese economic growth, they would be ignored and reprimanded. Hence why China is deeply concerned with clean up after the fact instead of preventative measures, such as not building a coal plant every 2 days.
    This opinion is out of date.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Generally, every country started taking serious action about pollution after it reached dangerous levels. China is now in a position where western countries were in the past.

    That's why people are advocating dealing with climate change now, instead of when a catastrophe hits us, but conservative elements are again pretending that the problem doesn't exist.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    China? China? Ah, yes, the Boris Johnson’s (Mayor of London) role Model when concerns of Working Attitude and Workers Right comparing with UK.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Generally, every country started taking serious action about pollution after it reached dangerous levels. China is now in a position where western countries were in the past.

    That's why people are advocating dealing with climate change now, instead of when a catastrophe hits us, but conservative elements are again pretending that the problem doesn't exist.
    They aren't dealing with climate change, they are dealing with smog. That they are dealing with climate change is what the UN-loonatic makes of it, with waving a red flag on tops. Communism the answer to global warming, at least it's new I'll give her that, before giving her a break in hotel paddedwall. The nutjobs have taken over the asylum.
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-19-2014 at 15:05.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    They aren't dealing with climate change, they are dealing with smog. That they are dealing with climate change is what the UN-loonatic makes of it, with waving a red flag on tops. Communism the answer to global warming, at least it's new I'll give her that, before giving her a break in hotel paddedwall. The nutjobs have taken over the asylum.
    What she is referring to is the fact that there are no people like you in the Chinese leadership.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    What she is referring to is the fact that there are no people like you in the Chinese leadership.
    I am not a Chinese resident, nor a communist. Slims the chances of being a Chinese communist significantly yeah, that's true I wil just admit it. I am not a Chinese communist. But she still confuses reducing smog with global warming, and somehow manages to make the claim that communism is the answer to the non-existant manmade global-warming, while it are just enviromental meassures to reduce smog.

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