Ukraine-in-a-thread

[rvg]

I think i will sit on this for a bit before i make any judgement calls upon it.

While you're waiting you might consider taking accelerated course of Russian 101. It might come in very handy very soon.

[HoreTore]

And it didn't achieve the first and had to break the peace deal it signed in Kumanovo to achieve the second.

Milosevic is gone: check. Kosovo separated from Serbia: check. I'm happy.

Why aren't you supporting Russian acquisition of Crimea again?

I'm an internationalist socialist. Terms like "borders", "territorial integrity", "sovereignty" and such are meaningless to me.

I don't oppose Crimea rejoining Russia. What I oppose is that Russia wants Crimea to rejoin. And that thug in charge in Crimea, hang him.

I support the thugs in Kiev, they only shot at the police. I see little wrong with that.

[Kagemusha]

While you're waiting you might consider taking accelerated course of Russian 101. It might come in very handy very soon.

Hmmm...According to latest news one Ukrainian service man and one "self defense forces" member were in fact killed by a third party sniper who has been now detained. Interesting... And dont worry i know few words of Russian rvg.

[rvg]

...And dont worry i know few words of Russian rvg.

Awesome! You must be a part of some early warning/intelligence gathering unit.

[Brenus]

"Kosovo separated from Serbia: check." Re-calibrate your checker, faulty somewhere...

"I believe NATO's goal was to 1) remove Milosevic from power and 2) separate Kosovo from Serbia." and "Terms like "borders", "territorial integrity", "sovereignty" and such are meaningless to me". Err, contradiction... I am not against contradictions mind you...

[HoreTore]

Err, contradiction... I am not against contradictions mind you...

How so?

[drone]

II believe NATO's goal was to 1) remove Milosevic from power and 2) separate Kosovo from Serbia.

I always thought the goal was to distract the news away from Bill Clinton getting oral from his intern.

[HoreTore]

I always thought the goal was to distract the news away from Bill Clinton getting oral from his intern.

Is that the sound of a dog wagging its tail I hear?

[Beskar]

I always thought the goal was to distract the news away from Bill Clinton getting oral from his intern.

It is a honest mistake when regional accents distort the oval office. He thought he was exercising his presidential privileges.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, it is my argument that while Milosevic and other hardliners would have liked a Serb-dominated Kosovo, they wouldn't dare to try and make it a reality for fear of repercussions, like the NATO bombing that was in the air (no pun intended). By starting the bombing for something that hadn't happen, NATO removed all incentives for it not to happen.

If I'm being unclear, I'll try to illustrate it with a rather crude example - Guy A hates Guy B and wants to kill him, but doesn't do it for fear of going to jail. Even though Guy B is unharmed, the judge places Guy A in jail for killing Guy B. Guy A doesn't have anything more to lose, so he can attack Guy B.

Oh - so we should have bombed you earlier and harder?

Because, in your example they either needed a better cell, or a hangman.

[gaelic cowboy]

Ah the dominoes keep racking up now Transnistria is next

Pro-Russian politicians and activists in Moldova's breakaway Trans-Dniester region have asked the Russian parliament to draft a law that would allow their territory to join Russia.

The Trans-Dniestrian appeal comes as Moscow moves towards absorbing Crimea into the Russian Federation. Ukraine, the EU and US say that move is illegal.

Russian loyalists dominate Trans-Dniester, with support from Moscow.

The region split from Moldova in a war in 1991-92, as the USSR was collapsing.

Moldova's President Nicolae Timofti said in a news briefing on Tuesday that any decision by Moscow to accept Trans-Dniester "would be a step in the wrong direction".

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In a September 2006 referendum, unrecognised by Moldova and the international community, the region reasserted its demand for independence.

Irina Kubanskikh, spokeswoman for the Trans-Dniester parliament, told Itar-Tass news agency that the region's public bodies had "appealed to the Russian Federation leadership to examine the possibility of extending to Trans-Dniester the legislation, currently under discussion in the State Duma, on granting Russian citizenship and admitting new subjects into Russia".

A pro-Kremlin party, A Just Russia, has drafted legislation to make it easier for new territories to join Russia. The party told the Vedomosti newspaper that the text was now being revised, in order not to delay the rapid accession of Crimea to Russia.

The Duma - Russia's lower house - and the Federation Council (upper house) are dominated by supporters of President Vladimir Putin.

Vedomosti reports that the Trans-Dniester appeal to Russia also warns about a possible further deterioration if Moldova signs an association agreement with the EU.

Moldova's leaders plan to do so. The crisis in neighbouring Ukraine erupted after former President Viktor Yanukovych was expected - and then refused - to sign such an agreement.

this is where he will go to far in my view

[rvg]

this is where he will go to far in my view

No! There will be peace in our time!!!

[gaelic cowboy]

No! There will be peace in our time!!!

tell that to the fellas voting in referendums who arent even in transnistria

[rvg]

tell that to the fellas voting in referendums who arent even in transnistria

Peace! Peace!!! Just need to bury the head in the sand a little deeper and all is well again!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, there are significant Russophone populations in most of the old Soviet satellite states. A common cleavage in these states in one down pro/anti-Russia lines. Maybe it was naive to assume that they would forge entirely independent paths form Russia - the collapse of the USSR was only around 20 years ago after all.

And can we please stop the Hitler comparisons it is ridiculous and fails on countless levels.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Not gonna happen, Rhyf'. This thread is over 1300 posts -- at that point Godwining becomes a requirement, even in the mafia threads. You don't want the .org to lose its license do you?

[Sarmatian]

Oh - so we should have bombed you earlier and harder?

Because, in your example they either needed a better cell, or a hangman.

I'm just trying to explain that something that happened after an action can not be justification for that action. If I punch you in the face, can I justify my actions by saying that you punched me back afterwards? In the same line of thoughts, Milosevic's actions are justified by the fact than a few months later, Albanians performed an ethnic cleansing of non-Albanians.

Milosevic is gone: check.

Again - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

I'm an internationalist socialist. Terms like "borders", "territorial integrity", "sovereignty" and such are meaningless to me.

I don't oppose Crimea rejoining Russia. What I oppose is that Russia wants Crimea to rejoin. And that thug in charge in Crimea, hang him.

I support the thugs in Kiev, they only shot at the police. I see little wrong with that.

I am, too. I don't care much for the borders. I'm angry that that NATO did everything it could to get the justification for aggression, from stagings of massacres and feeding false information to the public and the press, to removing a perfectly acceptable offer and purposefully making an offer that couldn't be accepted. Are you noticing a pattern (Iraq, Crimea...)?

According to the women who was in charge of a field hospital for the protesters and is a candidate for a health minister, they shot at other protesters, too. Funny how that's also acceptable to you.

[Brenus]

“Oh - so we should have bombed you earlier and harder?” In fact, if you wanted to bomb to stop a war, yes. Now, when you see the result of this “peace” that is just a war in waiting (or ethnic cleansing)…

“There aren't very many good modern comparisons for this”: Kosovo. Around what, 10 years ago?

“How so?”: "Kosovo separated from Serbia”. You support the creation of new border (and States). As an internationalist, it is not really great. Well, I supposed you are still against an Independent Serbian Republic in Bosnia. So, it is more about being against the Serbs than a real political point of view I suppose. But it is a supposition and perhaps you will tell I assume wrongly.

[Gilrandir]

According to the women who was in charge of a field hospital for the protesters and is a candidate for a health minister, they shot at other protesters, too. Funny how that's also acceptable to you.

She was considered a candidate but she withdrew saying that corruption schemes were still there so she saw no point in stepping in.

[Gilrandir]

Hmmm...According to latest news one Ukrainian service man and one "self defense forces" member were in fact killed by a third party sniper who has been now detained. Interesting...

While Ukrainian army officials gave the name and the rank of the killed and wounded Crimeans never did that. I strongly doubt there was one on the Crimean side. At first they claimed that only self-defenders were hurt, only then they conceded Ukrainian casualties.

[Brenus]

"She was considered a candidate but she withdrew saying that corruption schemes were still there so she saw no point in stepping in." So, your point is?

[HoreTore]

“How so?”: "Kosovo separated from Serbia”. You support the creation of new border (and States). As an internationalist, it is not really great. Well, I supposed you are still against an Independent Serbian Republic in Bosnia. So, it is more about being against the Serbs than a real political point of view I suppose. But it is a supposition and perhaps you will tell I assume wrongly.

Meh. I support turning all European countries into tiny bits, united under a strong central government in Brussels... So, slice up all the big states and get all of them into the EU.

[HoreTore]

Funny how that's also acceptable to you.

Who says it is? If the current crop of thugs don't end their thuggery, we'll just have to wait until a new batch of thugs comes along to act all thuggish and remove the current thugs.

[Gilrandir]

"She was considered a candidate but she withdrew saying that corruption schemes were still there so she saw no point in stepping in." So, your point is?

No point. Just clarification. Frankly, for me she is the person I would support for any state vacancy (including presidency).

[Sarmatian]

Who says it is? If the current crop of thugs don't end their thuggery, we'll just have to wait until a new batch of thugs comes along to act all thuggish and remove the current thugs.

And at the same time, have 50 millions Ukrainians live under thugs after thugs after thugs after thugs... That's no better than living under one thug. It's probably even worse because thugs removing thugs involves violence, periods of lawlessness, a drop in living standards, quality of medical care and education, radicalization of the population, more chance for extreme ideologies to get to power...

You know why Milosevic was voted out? Not because of the bombing but because west, most notably Germany and USA put pressure on all the various opposition parties to unite, gave them funding and organized them, along with several other opposition movements. 19 different parties (all of different ideologies) united to form a common front against him.

Elections weren't scheduled for another two years, but Milosevic pushed for elections to gain another term, after NATO gave him an excuse to present himself as patriot and defender of the country in the face of aggression instead of a thug.
That could have been achieved, even easier without the bombing. So, unless you're a trigger-happy idiot, there's no excuse for that kind of needless aggression.

[HoreTore]

And at the same time, have 50 millions Ukrainians live under thugs after thugs after thugs after thugs... That's no better than living under one thug. It's probably even worse because thugs removing thugs involves violence, periods of lawlessness, a drop in living standards, quality of medical care and education, radicalization of the population, more chance for extreme ideologies to get to power...

...And this is different from Yanukovich how?

What you're suggesting is that stability is preferable to moving towards democracy. A tough dictator to keep order.

I don't buy that.

[Sarmatian]

...And this is different from Yanukovich how?

What you're suggesting is that stability is preferable to moving towards democracy. A tough dictator to keep order.

I don't buy that.

No, I'm suggesting that unless you can be reasonably sure that removing a dictator moves you toward democracy, other options should be considered. There are different types of dictators. Tito and Paul Pot aren't even similar.

So, unless you know what you're doing, removing a Tito is just as likely to give you a Paul Pot instead of a democracy. Do I need to mention Iran?

In the case of Ukraine, which had a barely functioning democracy, no matter how corrupt it was, I believe elections were a better choice than violence on the streets.

[HoreTore]

Now, I'm suggesting that unless you can be reasonably sure that removing a dictator moves you toward democracy, other options should be considered. There are different types of dictators. Tito and Paul Pot aren't even similar.

So, unless you know what you're doing, removing a Tito is just as likely to give you a Paul Pot instead of a democracy. Do I need to mention Iran?

In the case of Ukraine, which had a barely functioning democracy, no matter how corrupt it was, I believe elections were a better choice than violence on the streets.

I'm not into apologizing for dictators. Whack 'em all.

[Gilrandir]

In the case of Ukraine, which had a barely functioning democracy, no matter how corrupt it was, I believe elections were a better choice than violence on the streets.

When people are brought to the boiling point it is hardly possible to reason with them.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, I'm suggesting that unless you can be reasonably sure that removing a dictator moves you toward democracy, other options should be considered. There are different types of dictators. Tito and Paul Pot aren't even similar.

So, unless you know what you're doing, removing a Tito is just as likely to give you a Paul Pot instead of a democracy. Do I need to mention Iran?

In the case of Ukraine, which had a barely functioning democracy, no matter how corrupt it was, I believe elections were a better choice than violence on the streets.

Keep shooting dictators, eventually you have to get democrats.