What's the point in elite units?

[QuintusSertorius]

I must admit that with the number of migrated faction games I play, I often can't recruit them anyway, but I've never felt the loss. Elites just seem to be a bad economy - and hardly worth it either.

You can't recruit them in many places, meaning particular settlements become the sole place you can get them (bringing all the logistics of getting them to the rest of the army). If you retrain (I try not to), you've got the reverse logistics to get them back there.

Then there's the cost; double or even triple a non-elite unit. Yet you aren't getting a lot more for your money, they may be significantly better in certain areas, but they rarely win a battle by themselves. It's still a numbers game a lot of the time past a certain minimum level of quality. Talking of numbers, they're often smaller than normal units too.

I'll illustrate the point by comparing some units who fit roughly in the same role. It's not a perfect comparison, because the elite can perform the role of "assault infantry" which few other units can.

Take the Peltastai Makedonikoi and the more regular Peltastai. The former is almost 2.5x the price of the latter, and has a smaller unit. The elite is significantly more armoured, and has 150% the overall defense, and a much higher attack stat. Better morale and discipline. However, they have half the number of javelins, and they're shorter ranged. Obviously that's because Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't skirmishers, but their loadout is the same. Lacking spears, they can't be used as anti-cavalry.

Upshot is, I'd rather have two units of Peltastai than one of Peltastai Makedonikoi. You can do a lot more with them, and that's four times as many javelins. The comparison is even worse if you take Thraikioi Peltastai; only slightly more expensive than regular Peltastai, but you can still get two for the price of one unit of PM. They're almost as heavily armoured, and as a bonus their secondary weapon is AP, making them brilliant enemy Family Member killers. Both the latter two are available as mercenaries almost everywhere, too.

With cavalry it gets even worse; most elite cavalry is ridiculously expensive, but since it's often heavy, blown after a couple of charges. Or else not a huge amount better than their non-elite version. Take Tarentine Elite and regular Hippakontistai. Once more, the elite is more than double the price of the non-elite. What you get is slightly better with their weapons, much better defense, slightly better morale. Again, unless you are stack-constrained, two of the cheaper are likely to be better. You shouldn't be using sword-armed cavalry for shock charges anyway, so the fact that the elites are more able to survive prolonged melee is kind of moot.

I can see the roleplaying reasons you might recruit elites, especially if your stack is a "royal army", or the bragging rights that you have so much money you can afford to use them, but from a functional standpoint, what's the value in elites?

[d'Arthez]

Functionally speaking Elites are most often not worth it. They are only worth it if you have a limited number of slots available (like the 20 in a regular full stack). They are, as you noted also better than levies, in terms of providing flexibility (not always, but usually). Another problem is that for garrisoning duties Elites are far worse than your regular levies, due to limited unit size, and offer less strategic flexibility on the campaign map. This also applies to replacing casualties. With some units, you are restricted to one or two provinces only to recruit the elites from - and spending 3 years to replenish losses is not a very efficient manner to go about military campaigns.

However, if you are venturing deep in enemy territory, and hence would struggle to reinforce your army / replace your casualties, a stack with more elites naturally will last a lot longer. This is especially true if you can wage battle on your terms, rather than the terms of the opponent.

I am sure that if you put 5 units of Hoplitai Haploi against pretty much any elite infantry they will win (at equal monetary recruitment cost). But battles don't work on the basis of such 1 vs. 5 mechanics. So even though 5 Hoplitai Haploi may be a match for a single unit of Elites, that does not mean that an army of 10 Hoplitai Haploi would beat an army of 5 Hoplitai Haploi and an Elite (both armies in conjunction with cavalry etc).

[QuintusSertorius]

I can certainly see the notion that the more durable troops (as elites tend to be) will survive a protracted stay away from home better. Though in the case of many of the regular units, you can easily replace with mercenary versions (true of Peltastai, Hoplitai, Thureophoroi/Keltohellenikoi at the least) so I think that works in the opposite direction.

I should say I see three tiers of unit: Levy, Regular and Elite. This is more of a comparison between Regular and Elite, rather than Levy (like the Hoplitai Haploi) and Elite. A better comparison for hoplites would be regular Hoplitai and Hypaspistai. The latter is more than double the price, yet you're not getting a huge amount more.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Generally I agree.

Elites are useful when money is not an issue, but your cities lack sufficient population to recruit a large, cheap army which will suffer heavy losses in tough battles - or if you simply prefer having your citizens making money and paying taxes rather than fighting. Under such circumstances a small army of elites bulked out with mercenaries might be best for the long-term growth of your economy.

Otherwise I only start recruiting lots of elites when the AI does so, and their armies become too tough to beat for my more historical army composition.

Hopefully in EB2 elites will be rare by limited recruitment, rather than overpriced to discourage the AI from spamming them.

My favourite elite unit are Kretan archers - they are awesome and worth every penny. For me, KH can't survive without them.

[QuintusSertorius]

My favourite elite unit are Kretan archers - they are awesome and worth every penny. For me, KH can't survive without them.

They're my only "must recruit" unit. I always have one unit in every army I make because they're better than almost everything else available in the west. In my Massalia game, I sailed an FM to Greece just to recruit a couple of units (one to use and one spare to merge in replacements).

It's not even for their melee ability; but because they outrange virtually everything else and carry a lot of ammo.

EDIT: Hoisted by my own petard! Doing the analysis, Kretan Archers (who I can only get as mercs) are nearly four times as much as Toxotai (who I use for garrison troops since they're cheap). For that you get double the attack value, 50% again in extra range and more than double the ammo. Armour is a nice to have, since it reduces death from other archers/slingers, though I always post mine behind my phalanx which is as good as a wall.

[moonburn]

because rich people deserve a chance of dieing honourably on the batlefield too not just the poor people

to prevent grachism demagoges igniting internal socii wars when you should be concentrating your nation outwards

but i use them to keep the damm poor people in line and prevent them from deserting and ofc kill a few enemues if it comes to that

a true elite is for instance the original triarii veterans of many batles who can afford better equipment

most elites where just snoby richer dudes who wanted some recognition not superior troops with better equipment (aaltough they tended to be bigger and stronger due to better acess to resources except when bigger and stronger meant fat assholes who needed the better horse or else the regular horses couldn´t suport them)

kretans are not elites imho they aren´t rich/er dudes they are just the survivors of many fights those who where lucky to survive long enough that someone is willing to pay them to fight and they can afford better weapons and armour)

in that sence true elites are solduros or scordascii orca experienced warriors with better equipment without the experience just the better horse armour and sword will only get you so far

but as i said in my makedonian armies i use them to hold the right those extra 10% and extra time are well worth their money cause it sucks when you run with your general chassing around archers only to return and find your entire army disbanding and cracking

because of the horse shoe the message wasn´t deliverered
becuse the message wasn´t delivered the batle wasn´t fought at the right time
because the fight didn´t happened when it eventually happened it was lost
the loss of the batle turned the war
and the loss of that war meant the king lost it´s head

elites are to use when the right time comes (druids or gaesatae used at the right time beging the enemies rout or stop your own troops root)

financially they make no sence with just 1 unit you could equip 5 medium troops but culturally socially and in the math of war they do make sence it´s just the way you use them and when you fight against other players or if the ai had inteligence you would learn to apreciate them when they hold that line when they close the growing gap or when they stop the enemy on the streets or on the walls everyone needs simbols elites are just another one

[Thoras]

I am sure that if you put 5 units of Hoplitai Haploi against pretty much any elite infantry they will win (at equal monetary recruitment cost). But battles don't work on the basis of such 1 vs. 5 mechanics. So even though 5 Hoplitai Haploi may be a match for a single unit of Elites, that does not mean that an army of 10 Hoplitai Haploi would beat an army of 5 Hoplitai Haploi and an Elite (both armies in conjunction with cavalry etc).

Well I just tried it :
1. 1 Unit Peltastai Makedonikoi(123) vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi(811) = The Haploi lost 626 men but won.
2. 2 Units of Peltastai Makedonikoi(245) vs 10 Hoplitai Haploi(1621)=The Pelastai WON and killed 1397 men the rest of the Haploi routed,with the general.The Peltastai Makedonikoi had 87 left.

I didn't flank or used guard mode in both battles, just head on combat and the Pelstai were surrounded.

So no I don't think they are useless ;)they can easly hold serveral enemy units while giving your other troops time to flank,or of course using them to flank.

most elites where just snoby richer dudes who wanted some recognition not superior troops with better equipment (aaltough they tended to be bigger and stronger due to better acess to resources except when bigger and stronger meant fat assholes who needed the better horse or else the regular horses couldn´t suport them)

Hmm I doubt it, at least not for the celts and germanic tribes and definitly not for medieval knights,but they are a bit out of the time frame.
The richer classes usually trained for war ,something that many poorer classes couldn't afford or do(time).

[Ludens]

Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't upgraded Peltasts. The unit was originally concepted as assault troopers: the ones that, during a siege assault, would be the first into the breach.

And that's really the main use for elite units: for critical positions on the battlefield, where a bit more armour and better morale can make a huge difference. The vanguard in a siege battle is most obvious example, but holding a critical flank would count as well. If you lose the flanks, the battleline folds, so putting your best phalangites there could mean the difference between victory and defeat in real life.

However, in EB such conditions don't happen very often, for two reason. Firstly, you have far more control, and far more situational awareness, than a real-life general did. As a rule, you can prevent or counter flanking threats as they occur. And secondly, such threats don't occur very often, because the A.I. simply isn't that good.

[vartan]

In other words, EB's competence surpasses its intended performance due to the limited engine. You can always try the elites out in an online battle and see how you fare.

[QuintusSertorius]

Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't upgraded Peltasts. The unit was originally concepted as assault troopers: the ones that, during a siege assault, would be the first into the breach.

And that's really the main use for elite units: for critical positions on the battlefield, where a bit more armour and better morale can make a huge difference. The vanguard in a siege battle is most obvious example, but holding a critical flank would count as well. If you lose the flanks, the battleline folds, so putting your best phalangites there could mean the difference between victory and defeat in real life.

However, in EB such conditions don't happen very often, for two reason. Firstly, you have far more control, and far more situational awareness, than a real-life general did. As a rule, you can prevent or counter flanking threats as they occur. And secondly, such threats don't occur very often, because the A.I. simply isn't that good.

I'm well aware Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't skirmishers, but as armoured, sword-armed infantry they perform the same role as infantry-flankers. They can't do anti-cavalry because of the lack of spears.

But I agree, assault infantry isn't really a role the RTW engine allows a use for.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

However, in EB such conditions don't happen very often, for two reason. Firstly, you have far more control, and far more situational awareness, than a real-life general did. As a rule, you can prevent or counter flanking threats as they occur. And secondly, such threats don't occur very often, because the A.I. simply isn't that good.

Good points - but here's a partial solution:

If you want to play hardcore EB, don't play on VH Battle difficulty level. Just go into the camera settings option and tick the general camera option. (And play on Huge unit settings).

It's wicked, because you can't move the camera view away from the immediate vicinity of your general, which makes it really hard to see what's going on over the battlefield. When the AI flanks you, often you won't see it until the attack hits. Sometimes not even then, until you notice a unit taking heavy losses! And you'll need to have your general running from one flank to another so you can see what's happening, and that will often entail a delay before you can respond to an enemy attack. If your general is on foot, then boy, you're going to have real problems with viewing the entire battlefield - you'll often have to take a guess at what forces the enemy is attacking with, throw in a unit or two of your own to stop them (if you have any reserves), and hope for the best.

Assaulting large cities becomes a lot more difficult as with your general sat safely outside the walls, you will have only a rough idea about how the street fighting is going inside the town, and you won't be able to see clearly how the streets are laid out, so the chances of you sending a unit down the wrong street are quite high. Coordinating attacks inside the town becomes all but impossible until your general goes in himself to organise things, but that could result in him being killed like Pyrrhus in Argos!