ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

[Husar]

Turkey has a rather large and modern military. In a conventional total war, Turkey would stand no chance (even with nukes taken out of the equation), but Russia couldn't take on Turkey painlessly, they would suffer serious casualties, and the funds needed would be quite significant indeed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...orces#Vehicles

You mean all those modern Patton tanks would stop them for long?
Of course they would suffer serious casualties, even the Pattons are not a complete pushover, but I was comparing this to an evasion of the EU, so...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...orces#Vehicles

You mean all those modern Patton tanks would stop them for long?
Of course they would suffer serious casualties, even the Pattons are not a complete pushover, but I was comparing this to an evasion of the EU, so...

No, he means the 750 Leopard I and II tanks.

Turkey has more Leopard II tanks than Germany.

Also, unlike the Germans, the Turks mean business and any Russian invasion would be made to suffer as much as possible - no punches would be pulled.

[Husar]

No, he means the 750 Leopard I and II tanks.

Turkey has more Leopard II tanks than Germany.

Also, unlike the Germans, the Turks mean business and any Russian invasion would be made to suffer as much as possible - no punches would be pulled.

That's ridiculous....

How is the Leopard 1 modern? Their Leopard 2 are only like 30 or 40 more than Germany has and the A4 standard is not entirely new either, the A5 was introduced in the early 90s...
Not to forget that Germany would not be the only country they'd have to face when invading Europe.
Even if I take your comment about the Germans not meaning business seriously, the glorious British would obviously bravely send their superior tanks and singlehandedly beat back the evil red flood, so there, invading Turkey is much easier...

[ICantSpellDawg]

Turkey has the second largest standing army in NATO.

Remember, the US couldn't defeat Vietnam.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's ridiculous....

How is the Leopard 1 modern? Their Leopard 2 are only like 30 or 40 more than Germany has and the A4 standard is not entirely new either, the A5 was introduced in the early 90s...
Not to forget that Germany would not be the only country they'd have to face when invading Europe.
Even if I take your comment about the Germans not meaning business seriously, the glorious British would obviously bravely send their superior tanks and singlehandedly beat back the evil red flood, so there, invading Turkey is much easier...

Sorry Husar - our army is in a pretty bad way too, our armour has been even more ground down that yours.

If you need to stop the Red Flood may I suggest the Greeks?

I'm sure they're only too happy to help fellow Europeans.

Back when you were serious about defending the Fulda Gap you had over two thousand tanks - now you have a tenth of that.

Turkey has a massive tank force, yes they have many older tanks but the spearhead are the Leopard II and Leopard I tanks in that order. Russia doesn't have a huge number of modern tanks either, remember, the majority of their tanks are still T-80s.

Add to that the fact that Anatolia is one of the worst places to invade in the world and you rapidly conclude it's not worth it for the Russians, it would require a general mobalisation and I don't think Russia can afford that financially or domestically.

[Brenus]

If we want to stop the "Red Storm" we have to built tanks, APC, heavy guns and trained the crews and troops. I don't know for you guys, but thanks to the strain of Presidents on France, we don't have any more the capacity to do so, as Sarkozy sold France to NATO, dismantled our factories (including the one producing special metal to Mittal who shut it down) producing weapons, and sold the premises and field where we were training to friends and relatives. The Infantry Combat School where I trained doesn't exist any more and is now a area of nice (but expensive) flats. All went for so-called inter-arms school, on the principal that a mechanic has the same needs than a grunt. All the "savoir-faire" based on experience and traditions is just gone.
Like others, France sacrificed the heavy gears for light intervention brigades, light infantry brigade type Legion/paratroopers/overseas troops, equipped with magnified APC, well, even not APC but glorified lorries (VAB)... And even not enough of them. Operations type Mali put an unsustainable strain on the French Army: No troops, no helicopters, no planes, limit of ammunition, logistic just good enough thanks to US Air force back-up. With a more robust enemy... So, Red Storm, let have a laugh...

And that why I think Hollande went to see Putin for Iraq. If France want to sent boots (Foreign Legion first, I suppose), France will need the MI-24 and the Russian Controlled facilities...

[Husar]

Turkey has the second largest standing army in NATO.

Larger than all EU countries together?

Sorry Husar - our army is in a pretty bad way too, our armour has been even more ground down that yours.

If you need to stop the Red Flood may I suggest the Greeks?

I'm sure they're only too happy to help fellow Europeans.

Back when you were serious about defending the Fulda Gap you had over two thousand tanks - now you have a tenth of that.

That was my point, most of these tanks are still in service in EU countries: Spain, Poland, Sweden, Greece...
Add to that the British tanks, the Italian ones, the French Leclercs, the Polish Twardys and you're seriously going to argue that attacking the EU is easier than Turkey? Or did you just forget how we started this argument? We didn't even get to the Air Forces and other assets yet...

Turkey has a massive tank force, yes they have many older tanks but the spearhead are the Leopard II and Leopard I tanks in that order. Russia doesn't have a huge number of modern tanks either, remember, the majority of their tanks are still T-80s.

These T-80s can take on all of these Turkish tanks, especially upgraded T-80s that are more modern than pretty much all the active tanks Turkey has.

Add to that the fact that Anatolia is one of the worst places to invade in the world and you rapidly conclude it's not worth it for the Russians, it would require a general mobalisation and I don't think Russia can afford that financially or domestically.

I never said they're going to invade, I said it's strange how people used to say Putin is coming for Europe and now even Turkey is too much for him...

[Brenus]

That is this strange "schizophrenia": Putin will invade all the world, but Putin can't attack even Georgia as his armies are made of tin foiled tanks/planes/whatever manned by drunken crews...
And they believed both proposals...

[Fisherking]

This article on the situation in Turkey is actually being rather kind to Erdogan. They speak of smuggled oil from ISIS and don’t bring up Erdogan’s son, who seems involved with it and is the Turkish equivalent of a Mafia Don.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-BURLEIGH.html
It tells us the Turkish Army is around 500,000 strong.

Yesterday, I here of two prominent Turkish Journalists were arrested, charged with espionage, and helping a terror organisation, (a US based opposition group to Erdogan) when in fact what they did was expose government cooperation and aid to ISIS.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two...&NewsCatID=339

[Greyblades]

That is this strange "schizophrenia": Putin will invade all the world, but Putin can't attack even Georgia as his armies are made of tin foiled tanks/planes/whatever manned by drunken crews...
And they believed both proposals...

Eh. Either russia would fail to beat the turkish army or they win but end up in another afghanistan.

[Gilrandir]

That is this strange "schizophrenia": Putin will invade all the world, but Putin can't attack even Georgia as his armies are made of tin foiled tanks/planes/whatever manned by drunken crews...
And they believed both proposals...

If you mean my comment, then you again misread it. I said of zero likelihood for Russians TO BE LET THROUGH Georgia. I don't doubt Russia can FIGHT ITS WAY through Georgia and win. But it will mean fighting one enemy to create a landbridge to fight another. Too much fighting OPENLY. Putin will do things in his favorite surreptitious mean way. Perhaps we will soon hear of oppressed Armenians, their Orthodox brethren, living amid bloodthirsty Nazi Turks and calling on Putin the Deliverer to free them from the yoke.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That was my point, most of these tanks are still in service in EU countries: Spain, Poland, Sweden, Greece...
Add to that the British tanks, the Italian ones, the French Leclercs, the Polish Twardys and you're seriously going to argue that attacking the EU is easier than Turkey? Or did you just forget how we started this argument? We didn't even get to the Air Forces and other assets yet...

Tanks in Greece do you no good if Russia invades Germany - by the time you can transfer the tanks between fronts the Russians are through the Gap. By contrast Turkey has 3,000 tanks in Anatolia.

These T-80s can take on all of these Turkish tanks, especially upgraded T-80s that are more modern than pretty much all the active tanks Turkey has.

If Russia deployed all it's T-80 tanks it could probably beat Turkey, but that means stripping a lot of its garrisons and Russia is unlike to do that. Like the Turks Russia would be likely to use a mix of older and newer tanks. Turks are reputed to be good tankmen and if you're invading Anatolia it can be hell on Earth, like Russia itself.

I never said they're going to invade, I said it's strange how people used to say Putin is coming for Europe and now even Turkey is too much for him...

The amount of armour in German is between 1/4 and 1/5 of what's in Germany including all German, British and American formations. the German army has recieved a reputation in recent years for being demoralised and overweight, while the UK army today has very low morale due to constant cutting of men and fun stuff like tanks.

Even so, nobody was saying that Putin would invade NATO/the EU but that we would struggle to stop him from annexing parts of EU countries because of our unwilingness to fight. You don't want to fight - you've openly said that in the event of war you'll run away and hide.

Me, I know I'm of draftable age and if the proverbial hits the air circulation mechanism I'm going to end up in the Green. So I'd prefer SigInt or failing that Artillery because I might actually be not-terrible at those.

I don't want to fight, thanks, but I'm perfectly willing to if required.

[Husar]

Tanks in Greece do you no good if Russia invades Germany - by the time you can transfer the tanks between fronts the Russians are through the Gap. By contrast Turkey has 3,000 tanks in Anatolia.

Germany and Greece are not the only countries in the EU.

If Russia deployed all it's T-80 tanks it could probably beat Turkey, but that means stripping a lot of its garrisons and Russia is unlike to do that. Like the Turks Russia would be likely to use a mix of older and newer tanks. Turks are reputed to be good tankmen and if you're invading Anatolia it can be hell on Earth, like Russia itself.

Good for them.

The amount of armour in German is between 1/4 and 1/5 of what's in Germany including all German, British and American formations.

¿Qué?

the German army has recieved a reputation in recent years for being demoralised and overweight, while the UK army today has very low morale due to constant cutting of men and fun stuff like tanks.

And the Russians are all drunk, so I guess we're even.

Even so, nobody was saying that Putin would invade NATO/the EU but that we would struggle to stop him from annexing parts of EU countries because of our unwilingness to fight.

I'm pretty sure that you or someone else talked about that it may be better to strike against Russia now before Putin comes or something like that back in the Ukraine thread.

You don't want to fight - you've openly said that in the event of war you'll run away and hide.

Yes, it depends on the circumstances as well, but especially if it is a war over something I consider a stupid political event where "my side" may even be to blame for the escalation.

I don't want to fight, thanks, but I'm perfectly willing to if required.

Define "required" in this context.

[Gilrandir]

If Russia deployed all it's T-80 tanks it could probably beat Turkey, but that means stripping a lot of its garrisons and Russia is unlike to do that.

The key word here is "if". It doesn't explain HOW Russians are going to get their tanks in contacts with the Turks.

[Kralizec]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...orces#Vehicles

You mean all those modern Patton tanks would stop them for long?
Of course they would suffer serious casualties, even the Pattons are not a complete pushover, but I was comparing this to an evasion of the EU, so...

The bulk of Russia's armory consists of T-72 and T-80 tanks. Granted those are modernized and are not as crappy as some would believe, but the Patton tanks still used by Turkey and others have also been heavily pimped.

In a dick measuring contest between Turkey and Russia the latter would obviously win, but Putin isn't stupid and he's not going to attack a NATO country in retaliation for a single jet fighter. Even if Turkey wasn't a NATO member it would not be worth it. Things will stay flaccid.

Allthough if Turkey weren't a NATO member and got into a fight with Russia, I would not root for either of them. Both countries are run by complete scumbags. Most NATO countries dissaprove when al-Assad kills civilians, but Erdogan is bothered because most of those happen to be Sunni muslims, and more than a few Turkic.

I don't even understand anymore why the "Assad question" is discussed at all, or why people such as Hollande are so determined to get rid of him. I can understand the argument that a peace settlement with al-Assad remaining isn't workable because more than half of the country hates him, but at the same time it's clear that the Syrian state isn't going to collapse any time soon. Even now the Syrian state is still the biggest player in that quagmire and any sort of peace settlement will need its support. And by that I mean the support of the military and the bureaucracy, which is held together mostly by its loyalty to al-Assad and his family.

[Montmorency]

In a dick measuring contest between Turkey and Russia the latter would obviously win

Those of you who believe this seem to be looking at raw counts of available materiel and troops, which is rather stupid; for example, it suggests that the United States would have a good shot at conquering Russia.

War is not like a game of RISK, in which 8 chits against 5 chits by definition results in total victory for the former. Militaries have to cover actual ground to get to their enemy and their enemy's strategic places, unless you figure that wars are about to be fought entirely by Space Marines coming down on in drop-pods.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There's the question of quality of personnel, too.

[Kralizec]

Those of you who believe this seem to be looking at raw counts of available materiel and troops, which is rather stupid; for example, it suggests that the United States would have a good shot at conquering Russia.

War is not like a game of RISK, in which 8 chits against 5 chits by definition results in total victory for the former. Militaries have to cover actual ground to get to their enemy and their enemy's strategic places, unless you figure that wars are about to be fought entirely by Space Marines coming down on in drop-pods.

All true, an invasion/occupation wouldn't work. I didn't mean to imply so, but I guess my bit about tanks gave that impression.

What it boils down to: if the gloves where off, could Russia deter Turkey from interfering in Syria again and tolerate the occasional violation of its airspace? Assuming that NATO wouldn't intervene, yes they could.

Russia would simply pull their reserve aircraft out of storage and move them into position to attack Turkey. No need for land forces to cross any uninvolved countries. The quality of Russia's navy in the Black sea doesn't matter that much, either. Realisticly Russia doesn't want to resort to this, but Turkey wants it even less, because it couldn't fight them off.

EDIT: I don't think hypothetical dick contests are important though, because it's not going to happen anyway. You should all be glorifying the exalted ruler Assad and debate wether he should rule for 40 more years. Or not.

[Myth]

In all fairness pulling the reserve aircraft and bombing Turkey sounds bad too. Static defences will mean russian planes being shot down. An expensive endeavour for little gain. Bombing anything other than ragheads is pointless, unless you supplement it with a ground based invasion. Otherwise you're basically feeding jets to the enemy SAM sites.

[Idaho]

Neither Russia nor Turkey have any interest whatsoever in an armed conflict. It's all just posturing.

[Sarmatian]

Syrian rebels in Homs strike a deal with the government to leave Homs.

In the next two months the rebels will leave the last areas of Homs they were controlling, bringing the "capital of the revolution" fully under government control for the first time since the conflict erupted. The agreement also specifies that only the police, and not the army may enter that quarter of the city, and an exchange of prisoners will also follow.

[Husar]

Those of you who believe this seem to be looking at raw counts of available materiel and troops, which is rather stupid; for example, it suggests that the United States would have a good shot at conquering Russia.

War is not like a game of RISK, in which 8 chits against 5 chits by definition results in total victory for the former. Militaries have to cover actual ground to get to their enemy and their enemy's strategic places, unless you figure that wars are about to be fought entirely by Space Marines coming down on in drop-pods.

Drop pods? Ekranoplans!



Why attack over land if you have a sea-capable craft that can go >500km/h, can transport 1000 troops or several tanks and other vehicles/cargo and is invisible to radar? So no, they do not have to cover ground, they can also cover sea and air.
(that they don't really have any operational ones is beside the point, mind you!!!)

Or why don't you just land in Antalya like this?



You know I've been told by a lot of people, that you can achieve everything as long as you want it enough!
Your communist defeatism cannot infect me.

[Sarmatian]

Or why don't you just land in Antalya like this?

If I landed in Antalya, I couldn't be bothered to conquer Turkey. I'd just conquer the beach.

[Myth]

Just let your pretty serbian girlfriend take a walk through a turkish marketplace without supervision, then you'll want to remove kebab.

[drone]

unless you figure that wars are about to be fought entirely by Space Marines coming down on in drop-pods.

It would be the Turks doing the drops, the Emperor is from Anatolia after all...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It would be the Turks doing the drops, the Emperor is from Anatolia after all...

He doesn't wear purple, he's NOT the Emperor.

[Greyblades]

[Idaho]

With so many interested parties having involvement in Syria, can't we all at least agree that whatever solution we come to, it's not going to be for the actual Syrians to decide on?

Preferred solutions:

America - like Kansas, but with more brown people. But can we have one of those democracies where there isn't any elections?
UK - er.. ok.. is Kansas anything like Surrey?
France - We want it just like it was in the 60s
Saudi - Tin pot Sunni dictator beholden to us please
Turkey - Don't care as long as it's stable and the north of the country is entirely uninhabited
Iran - Like Iraq, but without any Sunnis, or war, or like Iraq
Iraq - What he said, but said differently.
Israel - It will always be a threat to us, especially when it is either less or more of a threat