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Thread: All your livers belong to us!

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default All your livers belong to us!



    You think this is far fetched? Think again.

    A system of presumed consent will take effect on 1 December, where people will have to opt-out if they do not want their organs used after death.

    Living donors who lack the mental capacity to express a view could also be deemed to consent to donation by experts acting in their best interests.

    Health Minister Mark Drakeford said the "fundamental change" gave hope to over 200 people in Wales needing new organs.
    Under the new law, people are invited to register their wish to donate their organs or not, with the assumption that they consent to donation if they do not register a view.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-34443339

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    What, no Repo! The Genetic Opera clips?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    OH MY GOD!!! Doing more transplants to people!!?!?!

    Can't we just leave them to die??!!!!

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    OH MY GOD!!! Doing more transplants to people!!?!?!

    Can't we just leave them to die??!!!!

    Well my liver belongs to me, not the state!
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    OH MY GOD!!! Doing more transplants to people!!?!?!

    Can't we just leave them to die??!!!!

    Would you like to explain to us how harvesting the organs of the mentally handicapped while they're alive is ok?
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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Would you like to explain to us how harvesting the organs of the mentally handicapped while they're alive is ok?


    Honestly. What kind of discussion can you possibly be trying to develop with that statement?
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Well my liver belongs to me, not the state!
    The loss aversion of old age/right wingers encapsulated!
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Honestly, I don't see the problem.

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    The slippery slope is slippery.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    The slippery slope is slippery.
    This is a non-argument - almost everything we do could be claimed to be on a slippery slope: driving fast means people are more likely to die. Yet we don't state that we should not drive any cars to be safe.

    Idaho, are all left wingers signed up to have their organs removed for the Greater Good?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Would you like to explain to us how harvesting the organs of the mentally handicapped while they're alive is ok?
    ...are we reading the same article? All donations are stated to be only post-Morten.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Would you like to explain to us how harvesting the organs of the mentally handicapped while they're alive is ok?
    Corrections:
    1) it is not the mentally handicapped. It is not mentally capable, there is a very big difference. Think vegetative-state.
    2) it is based on preferences ie:living-will in consultation with friends and family and a range professions including an independent assigned by the state to 'act in the persons behalf' which most often or not, always take the 'safe approach' thus will rule to opt-out.
    3) This is based on when the client is dead, not when they are alive.

    Anyway, long story short, we have a big organ crisis and you don't need them when dead. You can chose to opt out and most people don't actually mind.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-07-2015 at 22:47.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Well my liver belongs to me, not the state!
    Take steps to make them disregard YOUR liver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Why assuming that the deseased would like to have his organs donated is more immoral than assuming that he wouldn't.
    In my opinion, it's the same thing, but the former has the extra advantage of actually allowing some people to live a bit more.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Why assuming that the deseased would like to have his organs donated is more immoral than assuming that he wouldn't.
    Assuming he would (and having a law to prove that) may cause some people to "produce" the deceased rather than to wait for one with suitable organs to die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    There's no monetary incentive to do so beyond the already present black market. Besides that, unless they were on the top of the donor list anyone in need who tried that would have to kill a mountain of people to get a victim's organs put in them by a legal establishment.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-07-2015 at 14:52.
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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Assuming he would (and having a law to prove that) may cause some people to "produce" the deceased rather than to wait for one with suitable organs to die.
    I really doubt that, Girlandir, because murdering someone and making sure that the doctors have access to his organs fast enough doesn't look very practical, because thanks to the law there wouldn't be such a worrying lack of available organs, because by your logic, there is currently the possibility that a few desperate patients will start murdering donators and because the authorities would not be very willing to reward the the murderous patient with his victim's organs.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    My assumption refers to rich people who are in need of a transplantation and can afford to hire a person who will cause a prospective donor to die as if naturally. Something like that worked with rich childless couples (most of them foreigners) who struck a deal with doctors and bought a baby while his mother was announced that the baby had died in labor.

    Although it happened in Ukraine, perhaps it is not so easy to do in Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    You do know that sort of thing happens anyway, without this new law?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-07-2015 at 15:24.
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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    My assumption refers to rich people who are in need of a transplantation and can afford to hire a person who will cause a prospective donor to die as if naturally.
    Or alternatively, the rich patients are already paying some kidnappers to find them the necessary organs.

  21. #21
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    You do know that sort of thing happens anyway, without this new law?
    But now it's closer to being legal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    ...No its not. Murder is no closer to being legalized.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    They are going to take the livers of the rich while they are still alive and give them to the poor!

    It's typical Mengele-style class-warfare, I agree, says so right in the text if you can't read!!!!!!!11111

    Or maybe it's infringing of the human rights of the dead in order to keep other undeserving bastards like little children or so alive, I can't decide what makes me more angry!!!!1111

    I'm also furious that my money won't stay in my bank account after I die, what if I ever need it again?????


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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Take steps to make them disregard YOUR liver.
    This. Nobody is going to want my liver when I'm through with it.
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post


    Honestly. What kind of discussion can you possibly be trying to develop with that statement?
    "Living donors who lack the mental capacity to express a view could also be deemed to consent to donation by experts acting in their best interests."

    You see no problem with this?
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Not unless unless there's a clause i didnt see saying the state will start pulling the plugs on the comatose or something. Seriously, it's an opt out donor program, not a real life Repomen.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-07-2015 at 22:23.
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  27. #27
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Not unless unless there's a clause i didnt see saying the state will start pulling the plugs on the comatose or something. Seriously, it's an opt out donor program, not a real life Repomen.
    That's exactly what the quote says - it boils down to this - someone who is not compus mentus can be made to give their organs to someone else.

    So, for example, a retarded child could be made to donate a Kidney to their parent - or a comatose patient might donate part of their liver.

    Maybe the BBC is exaggerating, or just wrong, but the implication is very clear.

    We should never create a law which relies on the goodwill of society to prevent abuse.
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  28. #28
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    So, for example, a retarded child could be made to donate a Kidney to their parent - or a comatose patient might donate part of their liver.
    It doesn't mean this at all. As I posted in the above:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Corrections:
    1) it is not the mentally handicapped. It is not mentally capable, there is a very big difference. Think vegetative-state and discussing end of life.
    2) it is based on preferences ie:living-will in consultation with friends and family and a range professions including an independent assigned by the state to 'act in the persons behalf' which most often or not, always take the 'safe approach' thus will rule to opt-out.
    3) This is based on when the client is dead, not when they are alive.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-07-2015 at 22:46.
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  29. #29
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    That's exactly what the quote says - it boils down to this - someone who is not compus mentus can be made to give their organs to someone else.

    So, for example, a retarded child could be made to donate a Kidney to their parent - or a comatose patient might donate part of their liver.
    After death. It says it right in the first paragraph, they aren't going to euthanise the incapable for organs.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  30. #30
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: All your livers belong to us!

    We already recycle used paper, used glass, used cellphones, so why not used humans?

    It's your soul that goes to heaven, not your body, you get a new one there.

    So if the parts are not used to help other humans they will be eaten by flames or by critters, how especially the latter makes anyone feel more comfortable is beyond me.
    Last edited by Husar; 10-08-2015 at 00:40.


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