Trump Thread

[Viking]

Relevant correct use of memes:




.

[Pannonian]

Attachment 20829

I can't remember the original's name. Does anyone know?

[Montmorency]

Full joint statement out of Singapore:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Joint Statement of President Donald J. Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea at the Singapore Summit

President Donald J. Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) held a first, historic summit in Singapore on June 12, 2018.

President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un conducted a comprehensive, in-depth, and sincere exchange of opinions on the issues related to the establishment of new U.S.-DPRK relations and the building of a lasting and robust peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. President Trump committed to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.


Convinced that the establishment of new U.S.-DPRK relations will contribute to the peace and prosperity of the Korean Peninsula and of the world, and recognizing that mutual confidence building can promote the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

Having acknowledged that the U.S.-DPRK summit — the first in history — was an epochal event of great significance in overcoming decades of tensions and hostilities between the two countries and for the opening up of a new future, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un commit to implement the stipulations in this joint statement fully and expeditiously. The United States and the DPRK commit to hold follow-up negotiations, led by the U.S. Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and a relevant high-level DPRK official, at the earliest possible date, to implement the outcomes of the U.S.-DPRK summit.

President Donald J. Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea have committed to cooperate for the development of new U.S.-DPRK relations and for the promotion of peace, prosperity, and security of the Korean Peninsula and of the world.

(Signed)

DONALD J. TRUMP

President of the United States of America

KIM JONG UN

Chairman of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea

June 12, 2018

Sentosa Island

Singapore

Elsewhere, as noted in HABunny's article, Trump remarked that he would give Kim the benefit of the doubt by canceling all US-Korea war exercises until further notice. The US and ROK militaries announced that they had not received any orders to that effect and that they expected the exercise planned for August to proceed. Meanwhile, China immediately leapt on the statement with satisfaction.

So, here's a Nork-style propaganda video the Trump administration put out about the summit. Watch this shit. Watch the whole shit. @Husar




You can read elsewhere about Trump's unusually-incoherent remarks to the press following the meetings, but here's a disturbingly-lucid short clip in which he says regarding Kim's integrity:

He'll do it, I really believe that, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this.
[...]
Honestly, I think he's gonna do these things. I may be wrong. I mean, I may stand before you in six months and say, Hey, I was wrong. I don’t know that I’ll ever admit that, but I’ll find a - I'll find some kind of an excuse.

Maximum trolling gif


So, let's sum up: The US uses inflamed rhetoric to propel a crisis, then unilaterally concedes a face-to-face meeting between Kim and POTUS (who praises "talented" Kim and the loving relationship between him and his people), concedes on military exercises (previously held as transparent, lawful, and not subject to terroristic blackmail), offers to concede on sanctions, concedes on security guarantees to the North Korean regime, all for....

............

a reaffirmation from Kim that he very much wants to see American troops and nuclear armaments off the Korean peninsula.


*heavy sigh*

[Montmorency]

Found this on a forum with Viking's 'thirsty boyfriend' meme.



IMO this is worse, since the events of 1938-9 were arguably a delaying tactic between great powers, whereas this is... good optics in the mind of Trump's base?

[Gilrandir]

Relevant correct use of memes:




.

No wonder they like each other so much. Two dictators, you know. Birds of a feather...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...-two-dictators

[HopAlongBunny]

This piece sums up my whole take on Trump;
Every part of his Presidency is play-acting to gratify his ego; other considerations only exist to the extent that they turn the spotlight on Trump:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/11/...a-for-pundits/

The comparison to the "drama and spectacle" of professional wrestling is certainly on point

[HopAlongBunny]

Concessions touted by Kim that do not appear in the Joint Statement:

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/13/61946...oint-statement

Hmmm, Trump does tend to say a lot of things when performing w/o a script
Have to see how this plays out :)

[Husar]

I'm also on the waiting list. I've said before that I'm not sure about what Kim wants. People focus on him murdering family members, but we don't know much about the kind of people these family members were and why exactly they were executed. IIRC his uncle was a major figure in the army, so hardly a saint.

I'm going to lean way out the window now, but there is the saying that evil triumphs when good people do nothing and maybe, just maybe, sometimes good people need to murder very bad people to prevent even more bloodshed in the future. If you disagree, then please jail the entire US Army and especially the guys who shot Osama bin Laden.

Obviously I'm just guessing that Kim may not be all that bad after all, but he can also be both good and bad, or the most lenient leader North Korea has to offer without mass-murdering almost everyone there and starting "fresh".

Remember this, it's not like he can just "go good" from one day to another in the regime his fathers set up:

[Montmorency]

Can't we assume that the first and highest priority of any dictator is self-preservation? Or is Kim the protagonist of a shounen anime?

[Husar]

Can't we assume that the first and highest priority of any dictator is self-preservation? Or is Kim the protagonist of a shounen anime?

That's my point exactly, I see quite a few people who seem to think he should have opposed his entire military and the established elite of his country on day one and declared a democracy. I don't think he would have survived that...
While I may not believe that he wants a democracy, it also doesn't mean that he wants the country to stay exactly the way it is as many people seem to assume. We probably don't even know whether he likes to murder people or does it for pure self-preservation.

The point being that maybe he isn't quite the mad dictator at heart, but has to play him because his only other option so far was a body bag...

Or to go even further, maybe the factor that made North Korea come to the table was not just other presidents, but also their new leader. I'm aware I'm just theorizing, but there were some rumors for a while about him wanting reforms in several areas and to open up the country more.

[Montmorency]

There's no need to personalize this. Of course Kim wants to develop his country. So did his father, and so would almost anyone else in his position. It would make his reign more secure, at least for a while. The one thing preventing this is international sanctions.

[Gilrandir]

I'm going to lean way out the window now, but there is the saying that evil triumphs TRUMPS when good people do nothing and maybe, just maybe, sometimes good people need to murder very bad people to prevent even more bloodshed in the future.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...tireless-work/
Did you mean that?

[Husar]

There's no need to personalize this. Of course Kim wants to develop his country. So did his father, and so would almost anyone else in his position. It would make his reign more secure, at least for a while. The one thing preventing this is international sanctions.

Then why does the country ban citizens from using the internet even if they can? They're actively hunting people with internet-capable mobile phones from China. Doesn't sound like a "wants to develop the country" and neither does the whole narrative that anyone from outside is an enemy. It would be weird if his father wanted the country to open up but actually sealed it off from the outside in practice. I don't think it's just the sanctions. The point of sealing off was likely to get full control over the information that circulates inside. It seems possible that KJU wants to change that to some extent, very slowly.
And why not personalize this? Dictators aren't one-dimensional people, or are they?

Gilrandir, no, not really.

[Montmorency]

Then why does the country ban citizens from using the internet even if they can? They're actively hunting people with internet-capable mobile phones from China. Doesn't sound like a "wants to develop the country" and neither does the whole narrative that anyone from outside is an enemy. It would be weird if his father wanted the country to open up but actually sealed it off from the outside in practice. I don't think it's just the sanctions. The point of sealing off was likely to get full control over the information that circulates inside. It seems possible that KJU wants to change that to some extent, very slowly.
And why not personalize this? Dictators aren't one-dimensional people, or are they?

Gilrandir, no, not really.

Yes, it isn't surprising that the government would prefer to control media access. So do Russia and China (!!!!). The job is just narrower and simpler for now in North Korea. If North Korea can't open on its own terms, then the regime can't guarantee its own continued existence; they're not interested in experiencing 19th-century style economic "diplomacy".Would be pretty silly to abandon this small advantage and subsidize Internet and media access while violence and starvation are rampant, like if Gorbachev had declared in 1985 that each SSR could be as autonomous as they wished.

But ROK and Western media have become pervasive in North Korea for years. The government is well aware of the phenomenon, and permits the privileged, wealthy and powerful to 'indulge' with relatively few restrictions, whereas commoners with USBs or DVDs will be arbitrarily cracked down on to inspire terror. Remember, dictators don't make people clap for a long time (simply) because they like to be applauded, it's one of many interlocking mechanisms of control. One of the most effective means of control is to condition people into imposing self-control.

And the country was not sealed off; remember the Axis of Evil? Here's an overview of EU sanctions over time, which in recent years have escalated to include total investment bans. It was indeed sealed in, except to China and Russia. (I think in one of the articles linked in the thread, it was mentioned that 90% of DPRK trade is with China; we all know by now of the North Korean labor camps in Siberia.) And surprisingly, certain EU governments and organizations.

[Husar]

And the country was not sealed off; remember the Axis of Evil? Here's an overview of EU sanctions over time, which in recent years have escalated to include total investment bans. It was indeed sealed in, except to China and Russia.

So how many North Korean tourists are currently officially vacationing in China and Russia?

[Montmorency]

So how many North Korean tourists are currently officially vacationing in China and Russia?

The elites, perhaps.

What's your point? As you know, neoliberal "opening" refers to capitalized direct investment and technology transfer, not "helping people live better lives"; citizens of opening countries only mattter in terms of human capital and market relations. And North Korea doesn't exactly prioritize the leisure and health of its citizens.

Every worker gets 15 days of vacation per year. The government has a list of destinations they recommend. But, unless it’s a highly attractive resort or summerhouse, they don’t make a trip to go there. Most people spend their holidays at home. Sometimes people would visit their hometown or go on a trip, but this costs a lot of money and only people who can afford it do that. Students are the people who have the most fun on holidays. They gather together to share food and dance together afterwards.

At least the Soviet Union had sponsored trips and Black Sea beaches.

They have acoustic guitars in North Korea though. I wonder if they play Deep Purple?

[Husar]

The elites, perhaps.

What's your point? As you know, neoliberal "opening" refers to capitalized direct investment and technology transfer, not "helping people live better lives"; citizens of opening countries only mattter in terms of human capital and market relations. And North Korea doesn't exactly prioritize the leisure and health of its citizens.

The point is that any opening is a step in the right direction, even if it is less than one would hope for.
And that I like to play devil's advocate when I see everyone come to the same reflexive conclusion about something without even considering potential alternatives. And that maybe "he's a madman, so duh!" is not a sufficiently complex explanation for me in every case. And when has this ever led to a solution anyway? We need more 4D chess.

[rory_20_uk]

Dialogue is a move in the right direction - whoever started it. Even if that is the guy who criticised others for doing the same thing, tore up one agreement that had been signed and saluted an enemy general.

In the "spheres of influence" where there's China, Japan, South Korea and currently the USA along with North Korea there is no clear shared outcome so I don't see things being solved any time soon.

[Montmorency]

The point is that any opening is a step in the right direction, even if it is less than one would hope for.
And that I like to play devil's advocate when I see everyone come to the same reflexive conclusion about something without even considering potential alternatives. And that maybe "he's a madman, so duh!" is not a sufficiently complex explanation for me in every case. And when has this ever led to a solution anyway? We need more 4D chess.

Was it necessary and relevant though? To my recall no one in the Backroom has discussed these issues from the premise that Kim is a madman. I'm pretty sure I and others have explicitly rejected this narrative.

[Husar]

Was it necessary and relevant though? To my recall no one in the Backroom has discussed these issues from the premise that Kim is a madman. I'm pretty sure I and others have explicitly rejected this narrative.

Maybe I've misread something or got distracted by the media coverage and comments I've seen.

[Montmorency]

Do you have any comments on Trump's plans to quasi-, and perhaps wholly, nationalize the coal industry to guarantee cash flow to his billionaire coal baron buddies?

(See also previous posts with keywords: coal, nationalization)

[Gilrandir]

He is ready to recognize Crimea as a part of Russia:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-...-summit-2018-6

[rory_20_uk]

It's not the stupidest thing he's ever said - there is a good chance that in a "fair" vote the would vote to be Russian... but of course democracies draw the line when the People might want something that leads to succession.

[HopAlongBunny]

A good article on the importance of language.
It notes that the media is complicit in this with a beautiful example around the issue of immigration.
The media talks about Trump as "tough" on immigration; the story should have been that Trump is profoundly ignorant of how the system works.

The president never gets called on lies, evasions and incomprehensible utterances:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...led-tough.html

[Strike For The South]

So I am sure yall have heard what is going on at the border and it simply bears repeating that there is nothing that compels any law enforcement agency to separate families. Nor do they even have to hold them for some kind of processing.

I have said this before but I will keep banging this drum. These people want (or at least tolerate) illegal immigration in so far as it is good for profit margins. Any real goal of curbing illegal immigration would begin with the agriculture and service industries. The goal here is not to maximizes deportations. The goal here is to create an atmosphere of fear and distrust so that these peoples labor can be extracted for pennies of what it is worth. The end game is an underclass with no say in the country in which they live.

These detention centers are an affront to human decency. In a presidency marked by awfulness, this is by the most awful.

[Montmorency]

Boots and lickers.

So I am sure yall have heard what is going on at the border and it simply bears repeating that there is nothing that compels any law enforcement agency to separate families. Nor do they even have to hold them for some kind of processing.

I have said this before but I will keep banging this drum. These people want (or at least tolerate) illegal immigration in so far as it is good for profit margins. Any real goal of curbing illegal immigration would begin with the agriculture and service industries. The goal here is not to maximizes deportations. The goal here is to create an atmosphere of fear and distrust so that these peoples labor can be extracted for pennies of what it is worth. The end game is an underclass with no say in the country in which they live.

These detention centers are an affront to human decency. In a presidency marked by awfulness, this is by the most awful.

Dude asserts: The American republic is undergoing a classic fascist collapse. Authoritarianism is a cancer and we're relying on herbal supplements and juice cleanses.

https://eand.co/

In unrelated news, the following was spotted at an internment camp for "unaccompanied minors".




Edit: "Collapse porn". This thread is collapse porn. it, we're all just tourists here.

[drone]

These detention centers are an affront to human decency. In a presidency marked by awfulness, this is by the most awful.

Just wait until the "tent cities" sprout up. Maybe the cheeto in chief will put Arpiao in charge.

My grandfather worked in Texas for the Border Patrol, I'm glad he isn't alive to see what is currently going on...

[Don Corleone]

Sorry I've been away and haven't been on more. Hope to remedy that...

This is Stephen Miller and Jeff Sessions, to a lesser extent, John Kelly. They managed to convince Trump that the Dems would cave on all immigration issues and give him an omnibus immigration reform bill within weeks. I don't think they actually believe that, but I believe that is how they sold it to Trump. They are looking for a catalyst event to galvanize sides to drive the issue to open conflict. Stephen Miller has stated as much, on the record, on multiple occassions (though all prior to the Inauguration).

I saw an amazing thing happening in Trumpland... The Blaze posted an article about how Franklin Graham is opposed to this tactic. You know, the evangelical pope, heir to Billy Graham, who said that Trump banging pornstars was perfectly in accord with Jesus's teachings.... Well, Franklin Graham stated he is opposed to this enforcement tactic... and the Comments section was vicious...they turned on him on a dime and calling for physical violence against him. Ditto for Laura Bush.

Something is very, very wrong. Family separation is NOT an immigration issue. That can and SHOULD be discussed with vigorous debate. Family separation is a tactic designed to inflict pain, on the immigrants and on the American public at large. It is abhorent, immoral and against international law. I cannot believe I am saying this, but Ted Cruz seems to be our last, best hope for our collective humanity.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Love him or hate him for it, Cruz's efforts would be largely based on a set of principles that he has elucidated before. He would not be, as our current President is, reactive and a-principled. I know, that is a neologism at best. I simply believe that Trump has little or nothing in the way of principles to guide him.

Don C, I disagree that the tactic being used by separating families is designed to inflict pain on "the American public at large." It is simple intimidation that strikes right at the heart of potential illegals/and legitimate refugees whose cultures enshrine 'la famiglia' above almost anything else. Families will refuse to attempt entry if they fear separation, thus driving down the numbers. I agree that the tactic is abhorrent.


Strike, you have reminded us once again of the source of the illegal immigrant problem. If a market remains for cheap labor by illegals, then people who are economically disadvantaged will supply that labor. Unless changes are made to curb the "market," someone will provide for that need. Our success in the 'war on drugs' would have made that obvious I should have thought.


I am probably being foolish.

[Don Corleone]

Seamus, my old friend, well met.

I respectfully disagree. Stephen Miller, the brains behind these efforts, is many things, but stupid is not one of them. He is rare in the current administration in that he understands how to play the "long-game". Such an individual would know better than most that:

1) the uproar would be tremendous and the polarization effect would be devastating to the American body politic
2) it would be ineffective as a deterrent, at least for several months (inside sources say the White House estimates border crossings and family separations to continue to ramp through the summer into the middle Fall).
3) It would however be highly effective as a wedge issue.

This is not about slowing immigration into this country. As you and Strike have highlighted, there are far more effective tools available for that.

This is about reshaping loyalties and national identity. If you can make a people green-light this, you can make them do anything. Stephen Miller knew how the numbers would shape up, and how long he could keep the outrage going. Interersting that it will just be starting to tail at the next election, no? But wait, if he knew it would galvaninze 35% of the population to do anything, and he knew that it would equally galvanize 65% of the country to do anything to stop him... what do you suppose his moves in October likely to be?

I know this is extreme language, but we are living in Berlin in 1933 right now. I strongly recommend "In the Garden of the Beasts" by Erik Larson.

I know I sound like an alarmist... but put this critical piece into context... If you were at the big kids table in the White House, even if you knew Trump himself had no ties to Russia (highly unlikely), it is irrefutable that the Russians did interfere directly and repeatedly in the 2016 elections and continue to do so. Why wouldn't you take some steps to preserve your electoral integrity (actually, the White House has actively blocked efforts at the state level for the past 15 months)? Especially when your candidate brayed for 6 straight weeks "that the fix was in"? Why? Because you know full well that there will be no mid-term election... that you will use the Russian influence to suspend elections "until such time as their integrity can be assured". Isn't that how all strongmen do it?

In order to get your people to stomach that, you need your motivated minority to have a wedge issue. You need an other to after. It's not Jews. It's "those filthy Latinos, all of whom are in drug gangs, even the children". And here we find ourselves. We're not playing politics anymore, and we haven't been for some time.