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  1. #1

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The letter of the law strongly supports this and the spirit of the law is outright states it: this cannot be applied to information such as Trump Jr was offered.
    What is not omitted, is admitted. The law does not specifically omit "information", so it will be considered under the literal meaning of "thing of value".

    That's the entirety of the matter.

    Here's a treatment from 2010:

    Anything of Value. The term anything of value is not defined in the FECA-BRCA or the regulations. It should be construed according to its common meaning and consistent with the purpose of the FECA-BRCA.
    Is the intent of the law to avert or mitigate foreign interference with election campaigns? Yes.

    Is receiving opposition research from a foreign national associated with their government an example of foreign interference with a election campaign? Yes.

    Is information pursuant to a campaign literally a "thing of value" to the opposing campaign? Yes.
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  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Like anything in life

    It's fact specific.
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  3. #3
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    What is not omitted, is admitted. The law does not specifically omit "information", so it will be considered under the literal meaning of "thing of value".

    Is the intent of the law to avert or mitigate foreign interference with election campaigns? Yes.

    Is receiving opposition research from a foreign national associated with their government an example of foreign interference with a election campaign? Yes.

    Is information pursuant to a campaign literally a "thing of value" to the opposing campaign? Yes.
    It is not really that simple. Any foreign news organization would be guilty of breaking that law if they publish something negative about a candidate, because it could help the other candidate. And lot of news organizations receive money from their government in some way, shape or form.

    Under your interpretation, that law was broken thousands of times during this campaign. Anyone foreign who published anything bad about Trump could be prosecuted.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 07-12-2017 at 12:17.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It is not really that simple. Any foreign news organization would be guilty of breaking that law if they publish something negative about a candidate, because it could help the other candidate. And lot of news organizations receive money from their government in some way, shape or form.

    Under your interpretation, that law was broken thousands of times during this campaign. Anyone foreign who published anything bad about Trump could be prosecuted.
    Foreign news coverage is not normally something a campaign can control. It is not something to be accepted or rejected between principals. In itself it cannot be exchanged as a thing of value, and it is publicly available, and static once promulgated. Conspiracy to fix positive coverage between a campaign and foreign media, maybe it is covered by other election law, but under this one you would probably need adjacent factors.

    The mere existence of coverage is clearly not prosecutable under this regulation.
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  5. #5
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    At some point I fully expect Trump to call a press conference, lean into the mic, and scream "THE ARISTOCRATS".
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  6. #6
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    At some point I fully expect Trump to call a press conference, lean into the mic, and scream "THE ARISTOCRATS".
    That was a humorous post, you're a high quality humanoid.


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  7. #7
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Foreign news coverage is not normally something a campaign can control. It is not something to be accepted or rejected between principals. In itself it cannot be exchanged as a thing of value, and it is publicly available, and static once promulgated. Conspiracy to fix positive coverage between a campaign and foreign media, maybe it is covered by other election law, but under this one you would probably need adjacent factors.

    The mere existence of coverage is clearly not prosecutable under this regulation.
    What is not omitted is admitted (I do find that concept interesting, as it is the other way around in European law, and I presumed it was similar in common law). Your definition of "anything of value" is too broad legally. A pep talk, a morale boost could be "of value".

  8. #8
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Trump, aka Gollum:
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  9. #9
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I just read the emails Donald Jr released and laughed out loud. I'm certain he sent money to Nigeria at least once in his life. I mean, "Russian Crown Prosecutor"?

    Daddy doesn't think I'm smart. He favours Ivanka all the time. I'll show them when I end up owning half of all oil in Nigeria...

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  10. #10
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I just read the emails Donald Jr released and laughed out loud. I'm certain he sent money to Nigeria at least once in his life. I mean, "Russian Crown Prosecutor"?

    Daddy doesn't think I'm smart. He favours Ivanka all the time. I'll show them when I end up owning half of all oil in Nigeria...
    Behind his back, apparently the administration staff calls him Fredo. Not kidding.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Probably it was never presented as coming from a foreign government. And they were primed to assume that there was international "dirt" to be had on Hillary Clinton via the Clinton Foundation.


    Of course, even if you DO accept that argument, it doesn't say much for their level of naivety or their competence does it?
    In the emails, Rob Goldstone, claimed the information was part of "Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump."

    Shockingly on the nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    What is not omitted is admitted (I do find that concept interesting, as it is the other way around in European law, and I presumed it was similar in common law). Your definition of "anything of value" is too broad legally. A pep talk, a morale boost could be "of value".
    Didn't we have threads here on the differences between common and Continental law?

    The definition is supposed to be broad. On the other hand, the existence of foreign people outside the US could in itself somehow be of benefit to a campaign. That doesn't make it prosecutable the way a discrete transfer of items would be. As I said, the difference between off-the-cuff moneymaking advice and actually transferring currency.
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  12. #12
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    In the emails, Rob Goldstone, claimed the information was part of "Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump."

    Shockingly on the nose.
    Well, to have a collusion with Russia, you actually have to collude with Russia. Russian crown prosecutor doesn't really cover that :D.

    I'm not certain any laws were broken here. Kind of like talking about snatching someone's purse and not doing it. This is something you pay political consequences for, not legal.



    Didn't we have threads here on the differences between common and Continental law?

    The definition is supposed to be broad. On the other hand, the existence of foreign people outside the US could in itself somehow be of benefit to a campaign. That doesn't make it prosecutable the way a discrete transfer of items would be. As I said, the difference between off-the-cuff moneymaking advice and actually transferring currency.
    I'll take your word for it, as my understanding of common law is much worse than my knowledge of continental law, which is pretty limited
    itself.

    It's just that it doesn't make sense logically. Anything can be "of value", it's such a subjective criterion. Let's say Trump got some information from a foreign national - how do you decide if it was of value, meaning how do you decide if it had influence in Trump winning the election?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Of course it is subjective. That's what gives it flexibility, if the argument made is successful to a judge or jury, then it is illegal. Otherwise, it isn't.

    The only other option when writing the law is a never ending list of codes that try to cover every last nuance and variance of real world situations. Oh, did this particular instance not exactly fit any of the definitions? Let him go, and in the near future we better add another definition in there.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Well, to have a collusion with Russia, you actually have to collude with Russia. Russian crown prosecutor doesn't really cover that :D.

    I'm not certain any laws were broken here. Kind of like talking about snatching someone's purse and not doing it. This is something you pay political consequences for, not legal.





    I'll take your word for it, as my understanding of common law is much worse than my knowledge of continental law, which is pretty limited
    itself.

    It's just that it doesn't make sense logically. Anything can be "of value", it's such a subjective criterion. Let's say Trump got some information from a foreign national - how do you decide if it was of value, meaning how do you decide if it had influence in Trump winning the election?
    Sorry Samaritan, the phone are my post, so I'm just going to refer you to the application of the "golden rule" against absurdity in statutory interpretation.

    Example to consider on common law, recently the New Hampshire legislature passed law to allow killing a fetus to be criminally prosecutable. To exempt abortion, they used language exempting pregnant women's "any act" from consideration as murder, manslaughter, etc. they quickly corrected the language, but if it had been used in trial the golden rule would not actually be seen to grant pregnant women immunity in crimes.

    Sorry about that
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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