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Thread: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

  1. #1
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Damn yes it has, I say!

    So the notorious BBC casted black actors to play as Achilles or Zeus. The reaction of the masses was loud and clear, that's unacceptable.
    "We Wuz Greeks" said one indignant citizen.
    "This is blatant racism towards Greek people, and I am shocked by the audacity of the BBC to try and rewrite Greek history" complained another chap, while someone else subtly implied :"Question, would anyone be mad if I made movie about US history, and actor playing Obama would be white?"

    So, is this the future of our society?
    People are so ignorant that they cannot comprehend the difference between history and mythology. More importantly, people are so sensitive that they go hysterical over the complexion of a simple actor in an obscure TV show?
    Has right-wing tribal political correctness gone mad? It certainly has in my opinion, we can't really accommodate every special snowflake, so insecure about itself that confuses the sons of fictional deities with US Presidents in order to improve their self-confidence.

    It needs to stop asap or otherwise an Orwellian future awaits us, where any means of expression will be censored by the plague of right-wing political correctness, always eager to silence any voice that challenges its dogmatic narrative.

    Mythology included! Rise up and teach the over-sensitive mob that history=/=archaic fairy tales.

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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    That's nice, but more serious misrepresentations exist.

    Like, casting black Britons to play black Americans.

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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    "We Wuz Greeks"
    I have to say, I had a good time with reading the reviews when the African Kingdoms expansion came out, but don't let Frags know about this or he'll be using it all the time fo realz.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    i have some sympathy with the negative response to a black Bond, if only because it is likely to fixate on the trials and tribulations of a black person in british society.

    the whole point of bond was that he was so supremely self assured that there was not a situation where he did not absolutely belong, a perfect social camouflage for a spy. his class and attitude allowed him to move in all circles.

    if someone can make a black Bond in this style then I for one have zero objections, but i rather suspect the film would be constantly referencing micro-aggressions and trigger points. he'd probably have a whale-noise safe space in his hybrid mini car.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    The outrage is off, but the pushing is soooo annoying. If you keep shoving it through peoples throat they eventually become annoyed. Everything would be better if they would stop patronising

    As for question without this particular issue, political correctness has always been mad, it's mad by nature, almost cultist, I won't have any of it
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-02-2018 at 08:06.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i have some sympathy with the negative response to a black Bond, if only because it is likely to fixate on the trials and tribulations of a black person in british society.

    the whole point of bond was that he was so supremely self assured that there was not a situation where he did not absolutely belong, a perfect social camouflage for a spy. his class and attitude allowed him to move in all circles.

    if someone can make a black Bond in this style then I for one have zero objections, but i rather suspect the film would be constantly referencing micro-aggressions and trigger points. he'd probably have a whale-noise safe space in his hybrid mini car.
    Bond is a fictitious character of the multiracial society, while the protagonists of Greek mythology are fictitious characters of the monoracial (indeed monoethnical) society. Thus, the former can be played by an actor of any race while the latter played by any other than whites would refer them to anything but Greek mythology.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    It is silly. I'm not gonna be outraged, I'd just ask "why?".

    On the other hand, there are far more more white people playing non white roles in films and theater, and no one raises a fuss about that.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Achilles could well have been black given the location (they think) is Troy, qnd Nubians lived in Greece I don't understand the outrage either it's kinda silly. But indeed, why

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It is silly. I'm not gonna be outraged, I'd just ask "why?".
    Why do you ask? To engage into verbal frolicking again?

    In case you mean business: Because it is what's "hard coded" into the myths. You aren't going to cast a young man to play Gandalf, a Siamese cat to play Lassie, a woman to play Jesus, a frog to play Jerry, a blonde to play Snowwhite...
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Achilles could well have been black given the location (they think) is Troy, qnd Nubians lived in Greece I don't understand the outrage either it's kinda silly. But indeed, why
    Troy is in Turkey. But Achilles isn't from Troy anyway he just went to war there.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 02-02-2018 at 14:06.
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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    I thought people had gotten all this out of their systems back with Idris Elba as Heimdall...
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  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Troy is in Turkey. But Achilles isn't from Troy anyway he just went to war there.
    They aren't so sure about it if that excavation is really Troy. Doesn't really matter really. The BBC shouldn't be so patronising, a sane person doesn't dislike black people anyway so there is no need for all this nonsense

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Be it star wars, dark tower, ghost busters or dr who; Time and again we have been shown that none of the people who push for these identity politic ploys are actually skilled enough to not screw it up and prove the detractors wrong.

    Race baiting is the crutch of the incompetent; something tells me this will be no different.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    This seems like a wonderful idea, we need more diversity in movies.
    It already worked great in Star Wars, Dark Tower, Ghost Busters and Dr. Who.
    We can't let the dumb and racist dictate who portrays whom in a work of art. Artistic freedom is a core value of the West, if the alt-right wants to import middle eastern values they can go live in the middle east instead!
    Last edited by Husar; 02-02-2018 at 16:00.


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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    The outrage is off, but the pushing is soooo annoying. If you keep shoving it through peoples throat they eventually become annoyed. Everything would be better if they would stop patronising

    As for question without this particular issue, political correctness has always been mad, it's mad by nature, almost cultist, I won't have any of it
    Can you define in your own words "political correctness" in a strict, factual way?
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    alt-right, you really love that word don't ya, it's meaningless

  17. #17
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Fortunately, British culture no longer requires that men portray the female characters in Shakespeare's plays, so why not a mere mortal to play the mythical son of the Nereid mother Thetis? Black, brown and white people are a construct. We know as a scientific fact that the Mitochondrial DNA in every human being alive today can be traced to an ever smaller number of people all the way back to a "bottleneck". About 75,000 years ago, less than 10,000 human beings existed and they all lived in Africa. So all actors belong to the same race and all of our ancestors came out of Africa.

    Now the real question is, can a screenwriter get away with giving Thetis dark skin? Maybe the Nerieds will protest. Her half Greek son would then logically be a man of color. Actually, lots of Greek pottery from that period also have Greeks with dark skin. Unfortunately, we live in an age where common stories are "re-imagined". Batman is a dark knight. Superman (truth, justice and the American way), climbs into a tub with Lois and presumably super humps her brains out. The girls get their own version of Ghostbusters. So, will "Black Achilles" be an heroic epic that tells a tale in a new way worth hearing, or will it simply be some hack milking yet another rehashing of the original nickel romance? I will wait and see.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Please assimilate into our society
    Don't take part in our culture

    Achlies and Zeus aren't real and the Balkans is trash. Don't care.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Reminds me of when the Merlin TV series where Guinevere and Sir Elyan the White were played by black actors. People seem to like complaining a lot.
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  20. #20
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Reminds me of when the Merlin TV series where Guinevere and Sir Elyan the White were played by black actors. People seem to like complaining a lot.
    It's a bit much ado, but I think that Zeus or Achilles should stay true to classical and renaissance artworks. Wouldn't get angry though.

  21. #21

    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i have some sympathy with the negative response to a black Bond, if only because it is likely to fixate on the trials and tribulations of a black person in british society.

    the whole point of bond was that he was so supremely self assured that there was not a situation where he did not absolutely belong, a perfect social camouflage for a spy. his class and attitude allowed him to move in all circles.

    if someone can make a black Bond in this style then I for one have zero objections, but i rather suspect the film would be constantly referencing micro-aggressions and trigger points. he'd probably have a whale-noise safe space in his hybrid mini car.
    A movie that did that could be interesting. You have no cause to worry. A multimillion dollar (pound) production will almost certainly conform to the stale archetype you desire; why wouldn't it?

    Have you ever actually seen "microaggressions" or "triggers" referenced in film, or are you reading too much tabloid content?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    The outrage is off, but the pushing is soooo annoying. If you keep shoving it through peoples throat they eventually become annoyed. Everything would be better if they would stop patronising

    As for question without this particular issue, political correctness has always been mad, it's mad by nature, almost cultist, I won't have any of it
    So, why don't you stop being politically correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It is silly. I'm not gonna be outraged, I'd just ask "why?".

    On the other hand, there are far more more white people playing non white roles in films and theater, and no one raises a fuss about that.
    Black actors want work too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Why do you ask? To engage into verbal frolicking again?

    In case you mean business: Because it is what's "hard coded" into the myths. You aren't going to cast a young man to play Gandalf, a Siamese cat to play Lassie, a woman to play Jesus, a frog to play Jerry, a blonde to play Snowwhite...
    But Jesus is a historical figure - regularly portrayed by Europeans rather than Semites - and Snow White has been and can be described with any hair color without affecting the substance of the story.

    To be consistent you would need to demand that only ethnic Greeks play Ancient Greek roles, while still grumbling that you could never be sure of their genetic authenticity. In this case, mostly British actors (including the black Briton) are playing Ancient Greek roles. If you're concerned about hair color, you could advocate for a wig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Be it star wars, dark tower, ghost busters or dr who; Time and again we have been shown that none of the people who push for these identity politic ploys are actually skilled enough to not screw it up and prove the detractors wrong.

    Race baiting is the crutch of the incompetent; something tells me this will be no different.
    So stop race baiting.
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  22. #22
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    @Monty, me pollitically correct? That's a first, I never feel all that concerned with sensitivities, maybe too less to a fault. That can be held against me without having to be very technical about it, but me politically-correct, how

  23. #23

    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    @Monty, me pollitically correct? That's a first, I never feel all that concerned with sensitivities, maybe too less to a fault. That can be held against me without having to be very technical about it, but me politically-correct, how
    You are constantly taking offense at the normal lives of "cultural Marxists", recoiling at the thought of different belief sets or the possibility that someone might challenge your own. You're extremely sensitive to the thought of someone disapproving of your lifestyle. You rely on a standardized set of language designed specifically to describe ideas you fear and don't understand.

    Using "political correct" as a catch-all for people who have different social priorities would be a good example of political correctness.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    So stop race baiting.
    You dont know what race baiting is.

    Not that such matters; what is important is you have taken a swipe not that you have actually connected, the attempt is enough to earn your well deserved back pat.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 02-03-2018 at 00:36.
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    You dont know what race baiting is.

    Not that such matters; what is important is you have taken a swipe not that you have actually connected, the attempt is enough to earn your well deserved back pat.
    Race baiting is a racialized worldview that nurses grievance over the expression of diversity in public life and work.

    Race baiting is exactly a function of the kind of thinking your post above indulges in.
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  26. #26
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    http://www.learnersdictionary.com/de...n/race-baiting

    the unfair use of statements about race to try to influence the actions or attitudes of a particular group of people
    From the comments:

    Race-baiting includes defaulting to ad hominem characterisations of your opponent as racist in a debate. The key is that race is brought into a discussion that has no inherent connection to race, in order to influence the outcome.
    That's not what race-baiting really means; that's how many people use it now, typically conservatives, as a way to remove the actual meaning from the words and use it against their political opponents. Race-baiting has always been typically associated with politics or public discourse, but it's about inciting racial hatred and antagonism by using coded language or slurs, not calling someone a racist or bringing up and condemning someone's racist views. Right wingers managed to muddy up the meaning so much that Bill O'Reilly, whose show is largely premised on race-baiting, throws the term around constantly without the slightest hint of irony. There was apparently a concerted, long-term effort by conservatives to remove the real meaning from the term so they could co-opt it and turn it around on liberals, which is actually a fairly common tactic in conservative politics (see the words: liberal, socialist, welfare, entitlement).
    I'm just gonna bet right here that some alt-rightey-whiteys in this thread don't even know what race-baiting really means as per the second comment.


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  27. #27
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You are constantly taking offense at the normal lives of "cultural Marxists", recoiling at the thought of different belief sets or the possibility that someone might challenge your own. You're extremely sensitive to the thought of someone disapproving of your lifestyle. You rely on a standardized set of language designed specifically to describe ideas you fear and don't understand.

    Using "political correct" as a catch-all for people who have different social priorities would be a good example of political correctness.
    I never say 'cultural marxists' your mind must be playing tricks on you. It isn't there, it's not real...

    As for the rest, well you are wrong, that's all. Having people from various cultures and ethnicities here is a given to me, not a persuit. That's the difference between me and multicultists, I don't care
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-03-2018 at 04:47.

  28. #28
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Has right-wing tribal political correctness gone mad? It certainly has in my opinion, we can't really accommodate every special snowflake, so insecure about itself that confuses the sons of fictional deities with US Presidents in order to improve their self-confidence.
    Wouldn't you say it's gone mad on both sides? If white actors play the roles of other races then movies are being 'white washed' if minorities are added to a national myth that didn't include them it's pandering to the multi-culturalists. There are snowflakes on both sides being offended. If it's okay to complain about a movie being too white when it's about whites then why isn't it okay to complain about that same movie having minorities added in just to avert the earlier claim. When done in reverse people cry foul at cultural appropriation. Appropriating a Hellenic deity and changing his race is bound to draw criticism, especially if it isn't for any artistic reasons but just one of multi-culturalism in BBC programming. It doesn't make it wrong to do but it doesn't make the critics of it racist either.
    If Shaka Zulu was recast as a white Zulu leading the zulu to empire would that be cultural appropriation or racist?

    Iranians weren't too happy with how the 300 portrayed their ancestors either.

    Artists can do whatever they like to when creating their art but people are allowed to criticize too. I think Ran was an excellent and amazing retelling of King Lear. The Magnificent Seven was an entertaining rework of Seven Samurai.

    It needs to stop asap or otherwise an Orwellian future awaits us, where any means of expression will be censored by the plague of right-wing political correctness, always eager to silence any voice that challenges its dogmatic narrative.
    To denounce and oppress anyone voicing opposition to portrayals of what's considered someones cultural heritage is Orwellian as well. To mandate multi-culturalism for no reason but social engineering can be as a form of racism in it's assuming the portrayal of only a single race in film as wrong and something to be fixed.
    Last edited by spmetla; 02-03-2018 at 05:02.

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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I never say 'cultural marxists' your mind must be playing tricks on you. It isn't there, it's not real...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I am not going to use words like social marxism for obvious reasons. let turn things around, can you explain to me how multiculturalism was a good idea
    Huh, I suppose you didn't. You used "gutmensch".

    As for the rest, well you are wrong, that's all. Having people from various cultures and ethnicities here is a given to me, not a persuit.
    You see, I never made a claim as to your feelings on "[h]aving people from various cultures and ethnicities" (though you yourself have made your feelings clear about 'inbred goatherders come off the mountain'). I made a claim on how you frame discussions related to them.

    That's the difference between me and multicultists, I don't care
    So why doth the lady protest so much then? 'There are multicultists out there complaining about something, I won't say what, but here I am complaining about them complaining about something I definitely don't care about. Whatever it is they're complaining about, which I'm sure they are doing, something I know for sure isn't worth talking about.' We see this kind of post from you pretty consistently.



    Here's the thing, spmetla:

    Shaka Zulu was not only an African historical figure we know of, he was a historical figure in conflict with white Europeans. Maybe you could do anything with "experimental" film, but it's difficult to even imagine.

    300 the movie and the graphic novel were deeply racist and chauvinist, absolutely - that was the whole point of the production. The author was trying to portray a Western mythology, as conceived in opposition to "the East". The aesthetic and themes of 300 make perfect sense in that context. Is it bad for the world? Probably. Does it have merit as a film, a comic, a work of art? Sure, so did Birth of a Nation. But you have to ask yourself when examining cultural products, "What is the aim and intent here?"

    King Lear/Ran and Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven are in principle excellent examples of cultural exchange, the trouble is in the details of production.

    The most trenchant criticism of "whitewashing" is that it deprives, at the backend, actors of work, and at the frontend, audiences of stories and models. This is difficult to dispute, although you can debate what the right balance is. It's not that straight people can't play gay people, or white people can't play ancient Israelites or Egyptians, or cis men can't play trans men (or trans women for that matter), etc... it's that these groups have been given short shrift in the marketplace, so it's good to make an effort to include them. And furthermore, tokenism is not inclusion. So here it makes sense to point out that 'palette swapping', i.e. rehashing old ideas with minority or underrepresented groups is a misuse of potential, the potential for these groups to tell and produce stories that weren't told before , not before a wide audience. Therein lies the value, the innovation. This is the forest, and I hope you keep it in mind when among the trees of controversy over particular casting choices for particular movies or shows.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 02-03-2018 at 07:39.
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  30. #30
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBC and Black Achilles Controversy: Politically Corectness Gone Mad?

    @Monty, I only have problem with those who care too much. Multiculturalism is a dangerous form of social-constructivism, patronising some, activating for others, the determinse will determine, there is nothing to gain from it, only drive apart. If you put someone on ones lap all he knows is that he can't get up

    edit, kinda related but not worth a thread yet but it could. We have this rising star here, Theirry Boudet, he's becomming a bit of an issue as he's very popular among the more libertarian-minded higher educated electorate. So a threat, and it shows. It's the demonisation of Fortuyn allover again. Feminists hate him because of something they say he said (a character in his novel said it read Houellebeque ffs, called a racist because of what (a black himself) person said, an elderly men who flyered got attacked by 'antifacists'. Crazy.... Leftist isn't something you are, it's something you have. Period.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-03-2018 at 11:31.

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