Cliffton thread & Axalon/Deb8

[Goalum]

This is meant towards the org staff in general and those that have to do with the MTW section in particular:

the previous, cliffton started thread was a well behaved, well informed thread by the admission of all patrons that participated and it did nothing wrong to no one - the DEBATE [DEB8] guy highjacked it quite clearly at a particular timing towards a confrontatinal pre-destined direction that seems to suit his ends, and instead of getting him out of the thread, the thread got closed..

This is bending under pressure from one single person and i'm not even sure who that DEBATE guy really is and for whom he is DEBATING ABOUT, the way he jumps into certain particular things everytime..

Org staff of the medieval section you are clearly going about this the wrong way it seems to me and you are digging the MTW section's hole.. might as well call it the redux section and let axalon "moderate" it.. will make for some interesting "DEBATES"..

Too bad..

[Stazi]

Wow, just WOW!? The next thread about Iron Man rules goes off road. It's quite interesting. What is so different in this subject that makes people so eager to fight about everything, even some imagined, nonexistent offends? Probably some people just like to debate no matter of a subject.

@gollum - mentioning Axalon in the way you did is not the healthiest way to argue. Going personal is just why the "Iron Man" topic was closed. btw I'm surprised caravel took the bait. It was clear it won't go unnoticed by moderators.

I understand why drone closed the thread. Probably, it was like "Geeez, I have better things to do than diving into this pile of.. irrelevant comments. Let's stop it for good." Deleting all comments starting from 49 and dropping a warning for certain participants would be IMHO a better option but he did what he did.

[caravel]

What is so different in this subject that makes people so eager to fight about everything, even some imagined, nonexistent offends? Probably some people just like to debate no matter of a subject.

Certain people see a thread or post with certain usernames attached and it causes decade old grudges to resurface... it's as simple as that, not about "iron man rules" at all. It doesn't have to be iron man rules as such, could be anything and in fact it has been, it doesn't matter what those posters are posting, it's the fact that it's those posters who are posting it...

If you read the original, resurrected thread you will see all of this - plain as day. No need to speculate or guess...

You've certainly been around long enough to have seen this.

@gollum - mentioning Axalon in the way you did is not the healthiest way to argue. Going personal is just why the "Iron Man" topic was closed.

You are merely speculating as to why the thread was closed.

What I find interesting is that you have a practically dead forum - with (as I said) more STW and MTW activity at TWC - and you have a moderator here closing the only active threads because of a little "debate".

btw I'm surprised caravel took the bait. It was clear it won't go unnoticed by moderators.

Of course it wasn't going to go unnoticed. I haven't taken any "bait" as such, I've only responded to comments directed towards me, while posting legitimate content and trying to keep the thread on topic...

But for some, their long standing grudge always comes first, hence the predictable slide into oblivion...

I understand why drone closed the thread.

Whereas I do not.

Probably, it was like "Geeez, I have better things to do than diving into this pile of.. irrelevant comments. Let's stop it for good." Deleting all comments starting from 49 and dropping a warning for certain participants would be IMHO a better option but he did what he did.

You can only speculate. I'm not trying to get inside the head of any .org staff or understand the rationale for why the thread was closed. In my opinion there was no need to close the thread and there is no need to censor or hack up the thread.

At the most, the thread could have been split.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Deleting all comments starting from 49 and dropping a warning for certain participants would be IMHO a better option but he did what he did

Agreed.

The result is that the forum is pretty much dull and lifeless and I never thought I would see the day where there would be more MTW and STW related traffic at the TWC

A sad state of affairs brought on by changing times and mis-judgements (IMHO) by the ORG staff

And with a steadily declining active membership, the future here at the ORG doesn't appear too bright.....

Again, it's just a damn game (and a very good one) meant to be enjoyed rather than debated on which is the proper way to play it....

[drone]

The thread was closed because there were 17 straight useless, off-topic posts in an hour and an half timeframe. A new member creates a thread and it gets hijacked by old grievances, a lovely first impression of the .Org. I may have overreacted, but Tosa's words rang true: Topic was tired and needed a nap.

The proper place for a thread like this is the Watchtower. My incompetence as a moderator should be brought up there where the admins will take your complaints and viewpoints.

[Goalum]

The thread was closed because there were 17 straight useless, off-topic posts in an hour and an half timeframe. A new member creates a thread and it gets hijacked by old grievances, a lovely first impression of the .Org. I may have overreacted, but Tosa's words rang true: Topic was tired and needed a nap.

The topic didn't got tired by itself. You are using words of an authority figure to justify a VERY BAD DECISION The DEB8 guy is clearly trolling [he's highjacked/derailed a thread on the same topic 3 times over MANY YEARS] and he's the only one doing so in that thread. EVERYONE ELSE HAD A NICE TIME EVEN PRAISING THE THREAD, HE SHOWS UP AND MESSES THINGS UP AND ITS THE THREAD THAT GETS LOCKED??!! - NOT HIS COMMENTS MODERATED OUT AND THE THREAD RESTORED ON TOPIC SIMPLY BY CUTTING HIM OUT OF THE ACTION, EVEN HIS POINT OF ENTRY IN THE THREAD IE THE PART THAT IS WRONG THAT ALL CENTERS ON HIM IS SO CLEAR CUT THAT I'M BEFFUDLED AS TO WHY EVERYONE ELSE CAN SEE THAT EXCEPT YOU?

You are misregarding ALL THE CLUES HE'S RUBBING IN YOUR FACE his behaviour [confrontational ONLY - NO CONTRIBUTIONS, SIMPLE NEGATIVE STATEMENTS OVER AND OVER AGAINST SPECIFIC PATRONS POINTS OF VIEW, the very calculated timing he got into the "debate", against whom and what line of arguments his confrontational style is turned against ONLY, as well as his username that suggests that most likely he's an alt account..and he hasn't come forth to challenge this in indignation either which speaks volumes..]

THE SAME HAPPENED IN THE DEADLY SINS THREAD. You noticed it yourself, 'people(??!)' were trashing absent members and their views of the game. Instead of moderating the trashers out and leave the thread - YOU LOCK THE THREAD PLAYING TO THE TROLLS INTENTIONS AND NOW YOU MANAGED TO REPEAT THAT SAME BAD CALL WITH SAID MEMBERS PRESENT AND A NEW IDENTICAL THREAD ACTIVE AND HEALTHY STARTED BY A NEW MEMBER - WELL DONE..!!

This has nothing to do with being a people's person. Its simple logic and nothing more - keeping active healthy debate open is what should be the priority, it has always been so, and ESPECIALLY SO FROM TOSA. Please dont use Tosa and his lines as a justification for your bad call..

If you cannot see that certain members have been playing a dirty political war in this forum and using every means at their disposal in order to do so, you are confusing the forest for the trees.

You can hide behind your role in the forum, behind nitpicking interprentation of the rules and the other staff's backing up in order to justify a bad call that bends the whole board under pressure by the alt accounts of a sociopath, or

you can take the oportunity to reckognise the issue, make the right call, ie moderate out the troll and re-open the thread, and let anyone know that the org is not their private field through macchinations trolling, alt accounts, thread hi-jacking as pressure against rival points of view- and whatever else backhanded means

[Goalum]

And also: since you seem to lock every thread about iron man rules that gets derailed from the same people and their - most likely - alt accounts, if now i am a new member, say, and i want to start a NEW THREAD about iron man rules what is the message i'm getting from how the forum staff react?!

The implicit message is loud and clear: iron man rules discussions are allowed to be derailed [BY THE SAME PEOPLE] and when [ALLOWED TO BE SUCCESFULLY] derailed they are finally closed/locked [not the derailer moved out of the thread]- so better not discuss these things, god its tiring, the same story again etc - YES THE SAME STORY AGAIN BUT FROM WHO??!! - whose ends this serves??! The forum's that thrives on appropriate discussion(of all colours) or someone's that doesn't want specific things to be discussed??!

It amazes me that you cannot see all this drone, seriously mate

If its a bad call, and you can see this, it doesn't have to stay this way - it actually shouldn't stay that way. Moderate the troll and re-open the thread with the right message to everyone that wants to participate, ie stay on topic folks, which is what moderating is all about.. ie Keeping healthy active debate exactly that: HEALTHY AND ACTIVE

[Ludens]

If you cannot see that certain members have been playing a dirty political war in this forum and using every means at their disposal in order to do so, you are confusing the forest for the trees.

It's certainly possible that the staff is missing something here. We are only human.

But hyperbolic rants only serve to antagonize people. The matter isn't quite as black-and-white as you make it out to be.

[Goalum]

It's certainly possible that the staff is missing something here. We are only human.

But hyperbolic rants only serve to antagonize people. The matter isn't quite as black-and-white as you make it out to be.

"Hyperbolic rants" ?! and "you 'missed' 'something' " ?!

Since you appear [from the way you speak] to know exactly how the matter is - and i dont remember you in the MTW section in ages when all this was forming or playing out, to be so smugly dismissive of someone who was - which is a testament to your own glaring incompetence and blindness as to what is happening right now, i'll leave you to it..

The fact is that you [staff] managed to close two identical legitimate, well behaved threads on EXACTLY the same subject when THE VERY SAME troll hi-jacked them in the SAME WAY instead of getting HIM out.. and now, through your smugly patronising response I, who made contributions to that thread and generated discussion for everyone to enjoy and participate, am here apologising and NOT HIM who just trolled my thread happily all the way to the watchtower and your infuriating. impolite, inapropriate, misinformed and disinformed - pretend to play buddha when someone else is getting the stick - answer..

No point bothering with you lot anymore - you really deserve what you get, and it seems you enjoy it too.. someone is laughing his a** off right now with the sheer stupidity you've just exhibited and he's right for doing so..

So since you're so clever and mine aren't good and get closed by you staff lot WITHOUT ANY APPARENT REASON AND WITHOUT BREAKING ANY RULES AND I AM HERE HAVING TO "HYPERBOLICALLY RANT" TO MAKE YOU AWARE OF THE FACT WHILE YOU TREAT ME LIKE S**T, i'll leave YOU generate threads and discussion in the mtw forum, go ahead..

HAVE YOUR WAY NOW DISMISSING AGAIN THE WHOLE THING - AND WHY NOT EVEN MORE SMUGLY THAN BEFORE? - BUT MIND YOU: NOT HYPERBOLICALLY SO - that would serve NO GOOD PURPOSE

[DEB8]

the DEB8 guy is nowhere to be seen here - appears out of the blue only for trolling as soon as a topic on iron man rules linked to that thread comes forth..

For your information - I get to see all of the posts made both here and re STW ; as I have both games and have chosen to subscribe to their forums.

Unless I have a particular interest in a thread / post , I do not post any comment. If I do post, then I will keep an eye on that thread for a few days and will always respond to anything I disagree with. So far as I can tell, that is exactly what everyone else does. My absence for the last week only reflects the fact that I had better things to do than wonder what the latest post by Caravel was.

Anyone ( including you gallum ), who suggests my reasons have any other meaning or intent, is an ignorant shit and a moronic hypocrite to boot ! Your ranting here proves this point completely !

[Goalum]

My absence for the last week only reflects the fact that I had better things to do than wonder what the latest post by Caravel was.

Really??! and yet you had nothing better to do than troll caravel immediately and timely while the clifton thread was running and before any-one suggested you are someone's alt-account..

Anyone ( including you gallum ), who suggests my reasons have any other meaning or intent, is an ignorant shit and a moronic hypocrite to boot ! Your ranting here proves this point completely !

ESPECIALLY ME, MATE - ESPECIALLY ME

This is going downhill now, as the [according to me] alt-account will troll the thread and perhaps his account to oblivion - perhaps a cover up??! so you wont find by what means he's pulling this through??!

In any case - He's all yours - two legitimate threads GOT CLOSED FOR THIS, and aXXXie his MATEY - MIRROR IMAGE..WITH WHOM THEY GO IN ACCORD PERFECTLY..

take it away matey now - troll, bash, swear to your heart's content

[DEB8]

I have not bothered to read much more of what is mostly ridiculous hyperbolic drivel since the post I replied to above. Suffice to say :

1. Caravel is a much nicer chap than Gallum ( Gollum as was - I believe ).
2. Axalon is also ( sometimes ). And I am NOT he.
3. Gallum remains a Shit ( and those that agree with him are Lemmings ) !

[Goalum]

STAZI mate, you are feeding a crocodile with the hope he'll eat you last as does the whole forum with VERY PREDICTABLE RESULTS.. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

[drone]

Caravel means that the exchange is offtopic and so the exchange is to be moderated and NOT THE WHOLE THREAD CLOSED WHICH IS THE PURPOSE OF THE ALTACCOUNT/TROLL IN QUESTION.

I do not believe this is what Caravel had in mind.

In my opinion there was no need to close the thread and there is no need to censor or hack up the thread.

At the most, the thread could have been split.

I happen to disagree with this viewpoint, there was no way I was going to let the thread continue on it's course without intervention. Locking the thread was likely the easy way out, but I feel like this discussion (in one form or another) would be going on regardless of which mechanism I used.

[Goalum]

I do not believe this is what Caravel had in mind.

I happen to disagree with this viewpoint, there was no way I was going to let the thread continue on it's course without intervention. Locking the thread was likely the easy way out, but I feel like this discussion (in one form or another) would be going on regardless of which mechanism I used.

Apologies if that is the case regarding Caravel's comment. I'll let Caravel explain what he means.

All i'm trying to say to you is [and you dont have to comment on it]: see the bigger picture, there's more than meets the eye here, unfortunately. Nothing personal towards you, i just think its a bad call that unknowingly (from your part) plays to the hands of a political agenda.

The same happened, as i said to the Deadly Sins thread, just read it. The DEB8 guy does the dirty work and then comes the 'man' to lend his 'voice of authority' without getting his hands dirty all the while, to give his seal of approval to DEB8s points - they are one and the same. Even the posting style

The DEBATE [DEB8] account appears to behave as a designed account for fanboying backup and for personality/point of view assasination and threadhijacking thereby rendering "rival threads" impossible to continue through trolling and so create a shift towards certain game issues not being discussed hence making space for 'others' to be

[caravel]

I am not so sure either: the exchange may have been a sideshow to you, but to me it felt like an old grudge that threatened to dominate and possibly derail the thread, without adding anything of value.

Crisis averted... as the thread has now been locked, there is no danger of any further derailment. All is good, we can now all get back to doing nothing at all...

other staff did not have to deal with it in my absence.

What was there to "deal with"? Who was harmed? What kind of imaginary rules are being broken?

I let all kinds of off-topic banter go on in threads, but "banter" is not what was going on here.

You said the posts were "offtopic", I've said that offtopic used to go on, within the flow of threads and was never a problem. That's all I've said.

Whether the offtopic "discussion" in question within the thread counted as "objectionable" is a different matter.

Only two members were really involved in that exchange, I had not reported the thread or any posts within in it and neither had the other to my knowledge - if he had that would be rather bizarre and hypocritical.

The end result and this show, is worse that the disagreement within the thread. That's the point I'm making and what you fail to recognise.

That mostly constructive thread is locked. In locking that thread apparently you feel you've done a good thing.

So, trolling iron man rules threads get them locked and a helpful and willing moderator aids and abets the trolls by applying the lock...

To replace it we now have this. Even more visible, even more stupid and pointless, presented for the "entertainment" of the entire forum, rather than just the few members involved in the niche sub forum...

The DEB8 guy is clearly trolling [he's highjacked/derailed a thread on the same topic 3 times over MANY YEARS] and he's the only one doing so in that thread.

In the quest for some kind of misguided, perverted "impartiality", the mods will of course simply blame all those involved - schoolteacher style... which is why we now have this thread in this forum as part of some idiotic formal(?) process which will achieve precisely nothing and may as well be closed. Honestly, no idea why this is here and open and the actual thread with the content in the forum where this is supposed to be is closed...

I happen to disagree with this viewpoint, there was no way I was going to let the thread continue on it's course without intervention. Locking the thread was likely the easy way out, but I feel like this discussion (in one form or another) would be going on regardless of which mechanism I used.

And what a disaster that would be...

I've seen worse in the backroom. That's how hypocritical and one sided this farce is.

The backroom has a history of more moderator coverage, more moderator time, more bans, infractions, "exchanges", major incidents... than the rest of the site put together. Yet it was all worth it, all perfectly acceptable, permissible and allowed to continue, with minor slaps when some miscreant took things a bit too far. Now we have a minor back and forth between two or three members in a forum which has had no posts this year, apart from that thread... and the resident moderator jumps in.

Playing right into the hands of the individual(s) who resurrected and trolled the old thread and the individual who also felt the need to weigh in and resume spewing bile into the new thread, based on one tiny comment which was perceived as a slight. The fact they were reading at all, the fact they they scanned for any kind of perceived offence says a lot...

Why would you post in an "iron man rules" thread just to trash every idea presented [by the posters you happen to despise]?

Shall I go to the forums about the newer games just to trash every aspect and facet of those? Better still, shall I also post in the threads relating to certain MTW mods and just trash and ridicule those mods, their implementations and the individuals involved?

It's win, win for me... based on this, the worst scenario is that the threads will be locked...

just read it.

That's the easy part, but difficult for some it would seem. But it's not worth the effort, lumping everyone together, etc, is the more "professional" way of doing things... and calling it a "feud" is also rather telling... just lock those threads and treat ALL those deemed to be involved as idiots - impartially and equally...

[Stazi]

ok.. I was called in a few comments so I'll explain how I see about the whole thing. For me it's very simple.

First, low traffic in this forum lately is no an excuse for lowering the standards. I admit I haven't read the forum rules but the basics are usually as follows:
1. stay on topic
2. don't go into personal stuff (which really derives form 1st rule)
3. don't double post
4. be respectful

The discussion between caravel and DEB8 was off topic, uninformative, personal stuff, not even funny. It was interesting only for them. This is what private messages are for. Additionality, due to the double or even triple posting, the tread looks like a mess, like their personal playground. I haven't seen any reaction on the double post thing from the mods so maybe it's not forbidden in this forum but it certainly doesn't look good and IMHO it's inconvenient to read. Especially now, when there is so little traffic here, we should keep our forum clean, tidy and informative as much as we can.

STAZI mate, you are feeding a crocodile with the hope he'll eat you last as does the whole forum with VERY PREDICTABLE RESULTS.. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

I don't feel like I'm feeding anyone. I merely expressed my point of view which accidentally is close to the drone's. As you probably noticed I don't agree with him on closing the thread entirely (which was nice to read until certain moment). I only mentioned that I can understand the reasons why he did it. If warnings are ineffective (as drone said) I'd consider a short ban (24h or so), just to show the rules should be taken seriously.

I haven't taken any "bait" as such, I've only responded to comments directed towards me, while posting legitimate content and trying to keep the thread on topic...

After reading some of your comments (obviously not all) during those years I pictured you as sane, reasonable person who knows when to stop. That's why I thought it was just a bad day you were dragged/baited into that pointless discussion.

[caravel]

I doubt that making a thread about the locked thread will change much...

It's an .org culture thing - any kind of dispute or discussion among members is silenced, censored, etc. Threads are locked or hacked up.

The result is that the forum is pretty much dull and lifeless and I never thought I would see the day where there would be more MTW and STW related traffic at the TWC...

The .org has the opportunity to keep the maturer players on board, but is instead moderating us out of existence...

[caravel]

The thread was closed because there were 17 straight useless, off-topic posts in an hour and an half timeframe.

As opposed to pretty much nothing at all being posted most of the time and most of the traffic seemingly going to TWC...? Back in the day, there was a lot of "offtopic" banter on these forums, not the airing of these nasty grudges, but a lot of humorous posts intertwined with the more ontopic stuff... that was part of made it what it was.

A new member creates a thread and it gets hijacked by old grievances, a lovely first impression of the .Org. I may have overreacted, but Tosa's words rang true: Topic was tired and needed a nap.

The two most recent threads having locks on them doesn't look great either... look again: you had quite a few members making constructive posts and discussing iron man rules and other aspects of the game - the exchange between DEB8 and I was a mere sideshow...

My incompetence as a moderator should be brought up there where the admins will take your complaints and viewpoints.

You've introduced a false dilemma, i.e. a choice between tolerating the status quo or "officially" complaining about you. On a forum of this size, which such a small community and considering our history, complaining about you to others is not my preferred route.

Also based on my experience of .org staff - they will of course side with you, so the invitation to go the watchtower is as good as an invitation to fuck right off - "my way or the highway". It's disappointing, but that's essentially what you're offering.

That's not how I operate - running off to a feedback subforum to complain about a moderator... but more importantly a member I have posted alongside for years. I have approached you directly and also by PM...

So, it would seem that the highway beckons (again).

[drone]

You've introduced a false dilemma, i.e. a choice between tolerating the status quo or "officially" complaining about you. On a forum of this size, which such a small community and considering our history, complaining about you to others is not my preferred route.

Also based on my experience of .org staff - they will of course side with you, so the invitation to go the watchtower is as good as an invitation to fuck right off - "my way or the highway". It's disappointing, but that's essentially what you're offering.

That's not how I operate - running off to a feedback subforum to complain about a moderator... but more importantly a member I have posted alongside for years. I have approached you directly and also by PM...

So, it would seem that the highway beckons (again).

I'm not so sure I would agree. I know I'm far from the best mod on this forum, I'm active but I'm not really a people person. Frankly I think I got the job because I was a reasonably well-behaved warm body that was actively contributing to the MTW sections. I'm not telling you guys to sod off, if you have problems with the way I moderate the forum bring them up in the Watchtower, and maybe I will learn something. I don't like locking threads, but giving out warnings and infractions isn't going to solve anything either as 1.) the time between active topics guarantees point expiration, and 2.) if nothing has changed in 10 years I don't have any illusions about my ability to stop the sniping with warnings that will inevitably be construed as favoritism by all sides.

Also, complaining about my moderating in the MTW forums means we have off-topic threads where all of the old bad blood is visible on the board. The first complaint thread even brought up members who had nothing to do with the original issue, how is this helpful?

[Ludens]

As opposed to pretty much nothing at all being posted most of the time and most of the traffic seemingly going to TWC...? Back in the day, there was a lot of "offtopic" banter on these forums, not the airing of these nasty grudges, but a lot of humorous posts intertwined with the more ontopic stuff... that was part of made it what it was.

The two most recent threads having locks on them doesn't look great either... look again: you had quite a few members making constructive posts and discussing iron man rules and other aspects of the game - the exchange between DEB8 and I was a mere sideshow...

I am not so sure either: the exchange may have been a sideshow to you, but to me it felt like an old grudge that threatened to dominate and possibly derail the thread, without adding anything of value. And while I didn't moderate the Main Hall "back in the day", I would have stepped in if such an exchange occurred on a forum I was moderating.

[drone]

I understand why drone closed the thread. Probably, it was like "Geeez, I have better things to do than diving into this pile of.. irrelevant comments. Let's stop it for good." Deleting all comments starting from 49 and dropping a warning for certain participants would be IMHO a better option but he did what he did.

Pretty much this. I could have spent the time to purge the thread, but what was written was already read so it was just going to continue. I was AFK this weekend and specifically asked the staff to watch this thread because I knew where it was headed. I was pleasantly surprised when I got back that the thread was still on-topic (if lively), and appreciate that it didn't go off the rails until later in the day and Ludens or other staff did not have to deal with it in my absence.

As opposed to pretty much nothing at all being posted most of the time and most of the traffic seemingly going to TWC...? Back in the day, there was a lot of "offtopic" banter on these forums, not the airing of these nasty grudges, but a lot of humorous posts intertwined with the more ontopic stuff... that was part of made it what it was.

I let all kinds of off-topic banter go on in threads, but "banter" is not what was going on here. I don't go to TWC, are these nasty grudges brought up in threads there? Do the mods there tolerate this behavior, or is this stuff just reserved for the .Org? Maybe TWC's increased STW/MTW traffic comes from the fact that new members do not have to navigate 10 year old feuds.

[Goalum]

I am not so sure either: the exchange may have been a sideshow to you, but to me it felt like an old grudge that threatened to dominate and possibly derail the thread, without adding anything of value. And while I didn't moderate the Main Hall "back in the day", I would have stepped in if such an exchange occurred on a forum I was moderating.

Caravel means that the exchange is offtopic and so the exchange is to be moderated and NOT THE WHOLE THREAD CLOSED WHICH IS THE PURPOSE OF THE ALTACCOUNT/TROLL IN QUESTION.

YOU STAFF LOT ARE BEING GASLIGHTED AND THE WHOLE BOARD IS BEING BUCKLED TO A SPECIFIC POLITICAL AGENDA

[Goalum]

This is meant towards the org staff in general and those that have to do with the watchtower section in particular:

the previous, cliffton-related thread was a well behaved, well informed thread by the admission of all patrons that participated and it did nothing wrong to no one - the DEBATE [DEB8] guy highjacked it quite clearly at a particular timing towards a confrontatinal pre-destined direction that seems to suit his ends, and instead of getting him out of the thread, the thread got closed..

This is bending under pressure from one single person and i'm not even sure who that DEBATE guy really is and for whom he is DEBATING ABOUT, the way he jumps into certain particular things everytime..

Org staff of the watchtower section you are clearly going about this the wrong way it seems to me and you are digging the watchtower section's hole.. might as well call it the redux section and let axalon "moderate" it.. will make for some interesting "DEBATES"..

Too bad..


[ this is meant to be a joke, but i'm not sure at the expense of whom? sadly, its probably against the good functioning of the board and its membership - the same tactics, by the same people, lead -predictably- in the same result. So perhaps you could leave it on as locked, as a reminder of this[=same tactics by certain same people yield same results]..]

[caravel]

No idea why the previous thread in this forum was created there/moved there in the first place...

Now, quite honestly no idea why it was locked either...

If you post in the "main hall", you make on topic, constructive posts, then Dr Heckle/Mr Snide arrives on the scene to troll his arse off, it gets locked... this is because you responded - and on this forum responding to that kind of thing makes you equally culpable.

You're told that this is the place, then the nominated staff rep emerges from the secret forum and... locked.

Then the hilarious charade continues... ad infinitum...

[Goalum]

... ad infinitum...

..regarding the "regarding the "regarding the "regarding the" " "..trolling by [very same] member that covers up [very another(?) same] member so said 2nd member doesn't look bad for unacceptable behaviour and no other contributions can be made on the same theme[the theme that doesn't make him look good]..



Its your board - do as you please - and i've made my points in the previous thread regarding the specifics - this is the final one i want to drive home - ie the situation still goes on..


PS watch this space below after i'm gone, for certain "replies"..

They might come in two waves - lucky guess, the first will be something like so:

This is all BS, i will have none of it, its a ridicoulous thread by a ridicoulous poster posting ridicoulous things, i will have none of it - what? staff you are editing what i'm saying??! i didn't say anything other than that its the poster and all he says is ridicoulous - this is lame so very lame - lame lame lame.. i will have none of it..now off to dat other TW site now - having said that - i've wasted enough time - In short..

This will go on for a while, and if no desired result is reached, the second [a bit more outspoken, more liberated - not as "eloquent" ] will hit,

like so:

This is all moronic hypocritical S**t, from a hypocrit moron and if you think it isn't you are a lemming

At which point the thread will be closed, left as it is, without the possibility for further adding towards any points made therein.. so that - if anyone is disinterested to take again the same shit from said member-s(?!)- the whole thing needs to be repeated again - in a new thread

Seems like the story of that Sisyphus guy..all greek to me

PPS They may also happen in reverse - ie you get the "friendly" troll at first for several pages and the overbearing smug as a conclusion.. its all very flexible

PPPS NOTE: if no matter how many times you repeat the process you'll get the same both types of replies from the two types of poster/accounts, find then the connection between the two..HINT=consider the possibility the posters are connected in some way or are actually the very same person

[Goalum]

At least WARMAN was fun at times..

PS BTW, How many years it took you to give up on him and get him out guys??!

Lets see how many will last the current resident overbearing troll, and his alts.. he's tougher than WARMAN, yet WARMAN had that childlike charm that made everyone like him..

PPS Maybe the people over at the TWC might find these little isolated incidents interesting too.. might be worth it if someone gives them a heads up..

[caravel]

The silence is deafening, we are the "trolls" my friend...

[caravel]

The original thread is opened and sorted with, thus this is not a 'repeat'. I will also merge this thread with the one closed by Hooahguy.

You've merged it and also locked it.

Now this simply a crusade against Axalon and Deb8. It doesn't contribute to anything other than a personal vendetta against them. As I have previous stated, the accounts were investigated and there is nothing connecting Axalon or Deb8, as to quote "Heroic Efforts" were involved.

Brilliant, you've turned it around... your investigation of the accounts doesn't matter. If one is at the south pole and one at the north it's irrelevant.

You've focused on one aspect of this, one small detail in order to attack and discredit those raising these concerns, without listening to their concerns...

You also get some beans for appearing to be impartial.

Compared with Kikuchiyo for example flagged as an alt account of Caravel instantly.

Just a great, great example... you remembered that one as well and the name... long memories you have.

Congratulations on that instant flagging by the way... but it was never a secret though, there were no proxies not even a fake email. Plus I didn't have an active account at the time, so it wasn't an "alt account"... the staff knew who I was but sill played the guessing game in the watchtower.

The Watchtower is typically seen as a safe-space as to allow people to vent and talk with minimal enforcement. This is done in the spirit of openness and allow grievances to aired and dealt with, without the 'apparent' secrecy behind closed doors. This is where you can discuss issues such as the locked thread when diplomatic efforts done privately were not resolved. However, abusing this trust placed in the membership to go on a crusade is not clearly not appropriate.

You're blind to the actual crusade here...

You can jokingly "play the victim" by "OOoooOOo we are the trolls now", but that is actually demonstrating insight that your behaviour is not acceptable.

Brilliant psychoanalysis, but not quite, I see it still goes on...

I'm ok with my behaviour because I'm not the self important admin of a computer games forum... I'm honest and open - you are not, I'm not using a secret forum for confer before sending out a solitary rep to deliver a pre-planned response... that's the huge difference between you and I.

or you could ignore it and face the consequences of those actions. You have used your 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. I leave the outcome entirely in your hands.

Your empty threats mean nothing. So you can ban me? Honestly go ahead... it's really no skin off my nose. Almost everyone of my generation has left this site, I have already joined them, you really can't threaten or do anything to me, so don't delude yourself further.

There's no hard feelings, if that's what you have to do, just do it.

[Goalum]

Originally posted by Beskar
The original thread is opened and sorted with, thus this is not a 'repeat'. I will also merge this thread with the one closed by Hooahguy.

Now this simply a crusade against Axalon and Deb8. It doesn't contribute to anything other than a personal vendetta against them. As I have previous stated, the accounts were investigated and there is nothing connecting Axalon or Deb8, as to quote "Heroic Efforts" were involved.

They are both separate long-standing accounts. They both use consistent IPs which are typical of ISP's in their geographical areas (no proxies, TOR, or suspicious IPs). Their geographical areas being thousand miles apart. There is nothing that connects their accounts. Compared with Kikuchiyo for example flagged as an alt account of Caravel instantly.

Even then, whilst alt accounts are generally frowned upon, action is not enforced unless the rules are broken. Punishments being applied across all accounts. Ban evasion is a clear automatic ban. Or using an alt to insult some-one, so your main account is not tarnished, ends up with a non-lenient infraction on your main account.

The Watchtower is typically seen as a safe-space as to allow people to vent and talk with minimal enforcement. This is done in the spirit of openness and allow grievances to aired and dealt with, without the 'apparent' secrecy behind closed doors. This is where you can discuss issues such as the locked thread when diplomatic efforts done privately were not resolved. However, abusing this trust placed in the membership to go on a crusade is not clearly not appropriate.

You can jokingly "play the victim" by "OOoooOOo we are the trolls now", but that is actually demonstrating insight that your behaviour is not acceptable. Just because it is 'Axalon' doesn't mean there are any exceptions. He could be the Pope or Queen Elizabeth or Judas Iscariot, doesn't matter. The behaviour is not acceptable.

You can receive this warning as "The staff have listened, mission complete" then go about enjoying the parts of the Org that you enjoy, or you could ignore it and face the consequences of those actions. You have used your 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. I leave the outcome entirely in your hands.

Its the responses and timing of the responses of teh posters involved [deb8/axalon] that give them away [likely being the same person] Beskar - during 3 related [and plenty of others it would appear] threads:
1. the MTW DEADLY SINS thread [opened by me in the closing of 2008 and resurrected by deb8 in 2017]
2. the Clifton thread [opened by a new member in the closing of 2018]
3. the watchtower thread [spawned by the locking of the clifton thread due to being trolled aggressively by deb8]..

So, just to put things into perspective, for anyone not familiar with the whole story..

[Threads made by same people on same topic get locked after trolling by same people]
1. the Sins thread was opened by me in the closing of 2008 and has contributions by Caravel and others.. the whole thread was discussing iron man rules in order to level the game against the AI.. axalon had participated in that thread originally - apparently had gotten an infraction [by caravel] as he was very hostile against the points being made in the thread..

The thread was resurrected by deb8 in my absence during 2017 and was mostly trashed [with monolectic statements] by him and in conclusion axalon [with personal insults and demeaning] as well.. the moderator [drone] tried to pull axalon's reins in the trashing but was being told basically off - he ended up with locking the thread..

2. the clifton thread [ON THE VERY SAME TOPIC AS THE SINS THREAD AND WITH A LINK TO IT] was opened by a completely new member - clifton - in the closing of 2018 that wanted to discuss house rules. caravel gave many clues to the new member and a link to the closely related to the new thread's content SINS thread.. deb8 appeared and aggressively picked on caravel to the point that i re-appeared after a 6.5 years absence and deb8 dissapeared.. the thread started thriving up to a point that deb8 - while i was not online appeared and picked up on caravel even more aggressively than before with straight out confrontational trolling.. drone - locked the thread..

3. the watchtower thread was opened by me in january 2019 - immediately after the locking of the clifton thread, to discuss the closing of the clifton thread and request the thread being cleared by deb8s trolling and re-opened. It also alluded that deb8 may be axalon as they now suspiciously try to close thraeds on the same topic by the same people.. the staff played what appeared to be delaying/stalling tactics to get me off the back - while half admiting this was a mistaken call - after much pressure by me the clifton thread got re-opened and cleared of deb8.. at that point axalon appeared initially to dismiss, later to placate and divert attention of the point that was being made: ie that he has a pathological grudge against certain posters and their topics..deb8 was nowhere to e found.. and after being called out several times by me, appeared finally to.. also troll this thread into a close..

From ALL THIS IS CLEAR THAT: axalon has a grudge against the specific topic and against me[gollum], caravel and anyone who might actually discuss or support it/and us. It also raises the question that deb8, that appears to mirror axalon and his fancies and works towards his ends, may be his alt account..

[IP's as conclusive proof for the existence of alt accounts]
..no modder - had he done that - with an account constantly under the cross heirs of the staff due to the mod would make that easy for you to spot..which is why [if i'm right] axalon trumpets that now..

I have already clearly explained that DEB8 is not my alt-account, and that I have no alts, or that I have no problems with the existence of such threads in general or that thread in particular - as was suggested by you two. That is what is relevant here. The administration can formally corroborate all this via IP-numbers, if necessary. Take it up with them, if you must...

had someone done that - he would have done it as [IP address] to be his alibi, not his nail in the coffin - which the staff could have have found out long before anyone else in the forum notices clues that give it away..

..the fact that you can't find how this may be happening doesn't conclusively mean that it can't or doesn't happen.. since you seem to know this, perhaps you should tone the conclusive tone of the response a bit..

[wathtower thread clues]
as i wrote previously axalon moves in first [when deb8 that was involved in the closing of the clifton thread that spawned the watchtower thread was nowhere to be seen despite called out] the watchtower thread[right after your answer [#39], to set the tone] to manipulate the impressions with his "prestigious dismissivness"intially smugly and impolitely dimsissing and - [supposedly] leaving - which is what he usually 95% of the time does - to come back a few posts later - making[by axalon standrards] an about/180degree turn, to placate and divert attention.. this about turn is like a solar eclipse for aXXXie standards - pretty rare, all the more so when i am involved, as i'm sure you'll have noticed by now..

axalon moves from:

. What is true is that I do think that Caravel, Gollum (and Martok) are indeed ridiculous people - just look at this thread.

in the first response, to:

I have no problems with the existence of such threads in general or that thread in particular - as was suggested by you two.

- - his posts [#53 & #65] in the sins thread totally discredit this..

Its interesting that Martok is also targeted now - in his absence - drone buddy, seems you're next mate, is this why you always back down?..

deb8 has been called out by me in several instances in the watchtower thread [posts: 1, 11, 26, 42, 46] and came out immediately after the last one [post 46] when it was clear axalon was being discredited by his absence and only his appearance would have toned this down..until then nowhere to be seen depsite having been him that did the trolling that resulted in the [clifton] thread closing and being alluded [in the watchtower thread] to be an alt acount..

When he finally did appear, he went on to troll to his heart's content - there was no real discussion or anything..his 'excuse' that he had better to do than bother with caravel is..totally discredited by his actions-deb8 trolled aggressively caravel in the clifton thread that was thriving..while i was not online..deb8 logged in in several instances before replying to the watchtower thread and logged out every time he saw me.. he wanted to start his reply without me online..

deb8 is pretty 'sane' and actually very exact and informed when posting about the game, in several threads in the main hall..but behaved like a complete and pretty nasty troll [using apparent naivete] in the watchtower thread..and a very clever one too.. watch how he played with the expressions used in the various instances in all these exchanges, he used:
"drivel" - used sarcastically, from axalon's snobish drivel, in the sins thread
"hyberbolic rant" - mirroring ludens in the watchtower thread and so get me 'worked up'
"duped" - [used probably sarcastically]- its from a post in my mod thread that i linked in. It has a fix for the BGs suicidal behaviour - something aXXXie doesn't want you to know that i did and publicised - probably because he's using it since then in his mod too

IF, axalon=deb8 - this is incredibly clever trolling masqueraded as false naivete - using the naivete as a screen to unleash under its guise his frustrated spite in an effort to get me worked up under your[the staff] very nose..

And then there was the personal tone and abusive wording..towards of course [accidentally, i'm sure] yours trully - no comment needed all very clear, if its aXXXie and especially if i'm right and he risks being exposed - or would have to tone down the deb8/aXXXie collaborations in teh future..

..even the theme of the abuse used by deb8

"including you"

, echoes axalon's

"this wont cut with me"

.. aXXXie mate, dont get worked up that people take my word at face value.. its because i wear my heart on my sleeve, treat all well and fairly, speak the truth and move about with regard to others - all these things you mostly dont do mate..

What's also very interesting, is how deb8 and axalon never appeared in the watchtower thread together.. obviously - if they are the same person - would be extra work to make it appear natural and not give any more clues away, so it would have been avoided - conveniently, and the two reconvene [which is their usual mode - see many main hall threads..] long after i'm gone.. impressions in such threads last forever, and dear aXXXie chooses wisely only those that benefit him -never something that could hurt him in the future.. pretty interesting

was deb8 reprimanted for the trolling in the wachtower thread by the way??!

[clifton thread clues]
the same he[deb8] did in the clifton thread [posts removed so now i can't showcase] - with a different style [than in the sins thread] he trolled it aggressively and timely to oblivion..he let some water run after my re-appearance as not to give target and then, when i wasn't logged in he aggressively picking on caravel that he now rather likes

axalon didnt appear in the clifton thread, because i immediately pin-pointed him in anything else but name..and everyone picked up on that including drone so someone else had to spoil the fun as otherwise it would have been too obvious - since they[?] know they[?] can always count on your staff for locking the threads they troll..[troll "accidentally" always on the same points, by the same posters ]

axalon - completely by coincidence obviously, trumpeted the fact [that he wasn't involved in the clifton thread]:

Enjoy the re-opened cliffton-thread, that I never was a party in...

, you guessed it: in his placating [watchtower thread] response that tried to divert attention..

[Sins thread clues]
you can see how i get a "warning" by drone in the clifton thread, not to tread there[in rivalry ground] - because drone knows i will subside - which i jokingly as ever do.. compare aXXXie when he gets a little editing after plenty of dirty demolishing/trashing by him and [you guessed it] deb8 of absent members in an 8 year old resurrected in 2017[by deb8 - conveniently] thread [MTW DEADLY SINS - started by me in the closing of 2008]: aXXXie demolishing Sins thread and its posters then_
drone trying to pull aXXXie's reins in the sins thread and finally_ aXXXie's trashing drone and the thread/posters reply

all the while a certain deb8 runs circles around anyone supporting the Sins thread [that he resurrected to trash with monolectic statements] and the points it makes.. he interestingly collaborates with axalon, helping him to mention certain things about certain "ridicoulous" and absent people, as well as giving him a reason to comment conclusively "in retrospect" and to debunk [!] [their words] them and their points - notice how mature is deb8 in that post, how cleverly sharp are his comments - nothing like the naive "awkward" troll in the watchtower thread - and how well they mirror each other - like echo in the mountains..all coincidence obviously..and then??! you guessed it: the thread gets locked

[Having to go through strains to get a normal thread on topic only when one person is trolling it, continuously over time]
As far as going back to places of the forums we enjoy we were doing just that as we always have been - it was your staff's mistaken/placating to trolling call that got them closed - on the same topic, over a few years, after the same patrons troll them..
and it took one and a half thread pages[you finally took action in the watchtower thread at post #39 - and "apologised" [you put the apology part in the edit.. it wasn't part of the response, just an afterthought for diplomacy's sake] for being late while all the while the moderators were keeping me at bay and so by dragging it to keep it all sleeping - thanks for the apologies matey ] and me not backing down to any tricks you staff had up your sleeve to keep this sleeping - despite what i was saying being teh obvious - ie that there was nothing wrong with the clifton thread[equally with the sins thread], just with a single poster of it.. but you guys knew that[i mean all the connections and behind the scenes rivalry] - hence why you locked the thread and played it down afterwards as not to open what amounts from your point of view to a can of worms.. the same you do now - put it to sleep..

no hard feelings - i - in many respects, understand you.. NOT THE PLACATING PART TO SOMETHING THAT ITS OBVIOUSLY WRONG FOR THE ENTIRE BOARD THOUGH..

the whole forum is now placating an aggressive, two-faced, sociopathic troll and an account with whom they operate like two hands of the same person in tone, and timing and scope in a number of threads against specific people/points of view [and its not just me and caravel - reluctant samurai, girlandir, tyberious, stazi on occasion and plenty of others have been targeted over the years]..

[Rivalry]
as far as the rivalry is concerned, i'll tell you what: nor i - nor caravel [nor Martok since aXXXie mentioned him]- started it nor maintained it - ever - and anyone not an alt account of aXXXie will tell you that..

When axalon first appeared (early fall 2008 - if memory serves) in the MTW section [which due to the membership - the leading patrons was THE PLACE TO BE for all things MTW] of the org, everyone treated him in the same way we treated all: helpfully, welcomingly, nicely, fairly.. we all quickly realised that axalon wasn't interested in any of that.. axalon wanted to be correct and better than anyone else, even on occasions that this couldn't or wouldn't happen.. if he was proven wrong or had to back down, he would be furious..sulk and hold a grudge FOR EVER.. and that is still the case.. he also proved incredibly possessive.. he wasn't inetersted in sharing anything, and always had to have the last word and be correct and vindicated.. its always black and white with him - his way or the highway - and if he can't completely impose this, its all macchinations and manipulation to maneuver into position and nothing more..

we all became painfully aware that axalon wasn't interested in being part of the community, axalon wanted to dominate the community, supplant it - and by now he does that with the entire forum wherever its to his interest..

Over time, he abandoned any meaningful discourse and turned into a bulldozer on the outside - rude, overbearing, totally smug with a foul air of authority.. by now, anything he says or writes is only to manipulate and dominate.. appearances is all he ever cares about, which says it all..

Having to be this way [with the axalon account], to promote his mod and political agenda around it and ambitions, it would make perfect sense to have a "casual" newby type account - with which to relax, be able to actually ask and discuss things and not having to care if he's proven wrong, and also use as backup or for the sake of "convenience" whenever necessary..

and plenty of deb8/axalon collaborations/co-appearances - some benevolent and some [very] malevolent appear to corroborate all this..

There were chapter after chapter after chapter of bad blood in his endless quest for domination.. the feud with Tyberious - another modder that appeared at the same time as him [misnomer, he basically just trashed the poor unsuspected guy and got him litteraly out of commission..], when he got demoted from moderator in the TWC, and in endless occasions here.. we've lost count.. you talk to me about feuds? - who is the common factor in all the feuds in the MTW land? You guessed it its aXXXie.. axalon and tyberious, axalon and gollum, axalon and caravel, axalon and Martok, axalon and.. basically everyone else [and especially other modders for..obvious reaons..] - EXCEPT DEB8 OF COURSE ..

maybe you are going about this the wrong way and give him every now and then a good temporary ban to cool him off instead of rising the placation level to the point that you lock threads that even allude to his presence and/or dislike of the topic and posters like the clifton/sins threads??!.. - just saying..

[notice how staff and membership dread even at the mentioning of him regarding a topic everyone knows he doesn't like - yet its completely legitimate and at the right forum, its his presence that creates the dread..: drone in the clifton thread, drone in the watchtower thread #6, drone in the watchtower thread #10, Stazi in the watchtower thread

this all results from the constant half-coveted bullying of everyone and everything he doesn't like..]

the fact that my/our threads are resurrected to get trolled 8 years after they were made and in my absence says it all..and when a new thread, by a new member on the same topic is also immediately trolled [by the same DEBATE_Y guy] - its hillarious - it makes the whole board look like a nasty place - not to mention that i wouldn't want to be clifton.. being a pawn on someone's on going vengeful agenda..

In 2012, before the org awards, axalon - without any provocation withdrew his mod from participating in the voting, and posted a drool of hate towards me, which he then proceeded to delete..as he realised that it was doing him a disservice in his clientelle and the community in general - people were picking up on him.. Stazi certainly seen that post - as he managed to reply - and probably Andres who had been just promoted to Admin..
..my mod went on to take the award with quite a large number of voters considering participation in the voting/awards that year..

i guess he did the right thing because - had my mod won the award while his was a candidate too - he would probably have to kill himself, being such a nice balanced chap.... so its better to troll with an alt account and trash my threads and me in my absence instead..8 years later - the courageous type

axalon is in an ongoing quest to quench the forum from anything he perceives as a threat - and he went on - very methodically and calculatingly in the sins thread, with an alt account that he "built" in public face over time and that he unleashed when i was long gone and certain not to defend it..

he just never calculated that i'd be back.. and most likely got very worked up when i posted this in the clifton thread..

which leaves me with very little else to do ,since a 10 years lapse has not been enough to cure the animosities and hatreds, than having to take all said animosity and hatred as a compliment..

its probably what got the thread troll-closed..

all this is just another chapter in this story..

everything points to the fact that you are dealing with a very methodical and nasty sociopath

aXXXie, caravel - that you now that i'm back started to like - said you should ask them to change your medication, he said its not working matey..

[nothing left to do..]
..so when someone-s who is rivalling me when i dont him [i never write methodically, periodically and in a targeted manner against anyone], targets me by any means and you play along to his means that go against forum rules - what am i to do then??!

..its ok Beskar: keep your jail cards and - as far as i am concerned your jail too..


PS the thanks in this post, says it all .. aXXXie..ermm sorry i mean deb8 mate: that was the trolling i enjoyed the most..really ingenious, i might even give redux a try for that

PPS sorry it was me of all people that found you out aXXXie.. still love you, though