ashigaru...point being?

[shogunKatzumoto]

i was wondering what point anyone has found in the ashigaru after the first few seasons?i understand they are cheap but i am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. i use them in the begining to garrison my perfectures. but i usually just use them for the scare tactics of alot of numbers.but when it is time to go into battle i use the yari samurai.i was just wondering if anyone else has found a use for the ashigaru after the first few seasons?

[Nowake]

In short, there is a big point.

Compared to YS, they are faster and, of course, cheaper. With armour bonus, you should prefere them. Of course, in SP, much depends on situation and resources, but if you have a good grasp over the battlefield, there should be no problem in "maximising their strenghts and shielding their weaknesses". They've been banned from MP because of cheap upgrades.

[Maeda Toshiie]

i was wondering what point anyone has found in the ashigaru after the first few seasons?i understand they are cheap but i am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. i use them in the begining to garrison my perfectures. but i usually just use them for the scare tactics of alot of numbers.but when it is time to go into battle i use the yari samurai.i was just wondering if anyone else has found a use for the ashigaru after the first few seasons?

They are very useful in taking bridge provinces. An army of ashis is the only thing that can induce the AI to cross the river and attack. Conditions for such a tactic:
1. Heavy rainstorm
2. No ND or WMs in the opposing army. Cavalry allowed.
3. Ashis have to be upgraded.

Follow Sun Tzu's advice, 1/3 on your side, 1/3 on the bridge and 1/3 on the far side. Charge in and surround the enemy on your side of the river. Remember hold formation and hold position.

Even if you dont win, you probably have gotten your money's worth of use from the ashis.


Same as in bridge defense. When muskets are available, 1/2 musket 1/2 yari ashis would destroy the enemy.

[MongolWarrior]

i was wondering what point anyone has found in the ashigaru after the first few seasons?i understand they are cheap but i am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. i use them in the begining to garrison my perfectures. but i usually just use them for the scare tactics of alot of numbers.but when it is time to go into battle i use the yari samurai.i was just wondering if anyone else has found a use for the ashigaru after the first few seasons?

I have been playing STW for 2 years, and I have yet to be impressed by Yari Ashigaru.They just rout too easy.However, they have 3 good uses.
1.for the low honor ashigaru they make good garrisons cause their cheap.
2.Also for the low honor ashigaru,since they are fast you should use them to chase down routing troops to build their honor without casulaties.
3.Once upgraded and are at high honor, they do make effective shock troops.
Thats just my opinion.

[Adrian II]

Ashigaru useless? Cheap? Bridge fodder?

Excuse me, gentlemen, but you are way out of line here. Once upgraded and battle-hardened, they're a force to be reckoned with. They're fast and flexible, they eat Cavalry for breakfast and yes, they are cheap so there's always more where they came from. The key to using YA in SP effectively is not sitting back and training huge, low valour and low morale YA armies before you start expanding, let alone letting them grow fat on garrison duty, for God's sake. The key is playing in the most aggressive fashion to upgrade their valour and morale and increase their generals' stars, then mixing them with fresh units to compensate for the inevitably huge losses you incur in the opening stages. Sure it's a delicate balance, but the benefit of massing YA and attacking from the word "go" is you keep your neighbours on the wrong foot and prevent them from rushing to their high quality troops early in the game, whereas you are carving out the territory (and amassing the funds through economizing on your troops) to do just that.

I'm sorry, I won't stand any nonsense about YA ever since I fought a most memorable campaign (Early, Expert) as Lord Oda, an Ashigarus' Ashigaru if ever there was one. After having been chased barefoot (and continuously pregnant as far as Wife Number One was concerned) from my home province of Owari by the combined forces of the merciless Hojo and ever treacherous Imagawa, I literally slashed and burned my way through Western Japan, destroying all buildings and farming upgrades except for short breaks during which I replenished and upgraded my tired and huddled peasant armies. My Long March ended in Satsuma where I re-erected my ancestral altar and from whence I fought my way back across the isles, eventually to return to Owari triumphant. Gah! And as for bridge fodder, I used those sluggish Naginata!

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. Good charge though, huh?

[EatYerGreens]

AdrianII,

An interesting tale. Oda is the one I keep trying over and over again and have yet to complete, outside of starting at 'Easy' level. (in STW 1.11) His 'discount special' is Ashigaru. 25% off the cheapest unit in the game. Cheers for not very much.

What with the persistent poor harvests it keeps giving me (Oda seems to be more prone to this than other clans I've tried), the loss of Owari would have me packing up the game and starting again (for the umpteenth time). Negative cashflow and all that.

So I'm curious as to how you blazed a trail to Satsuma. Was this a case of abandoning all 'home' teritories, putting all your armies into a single province and marching off, caring not whether vacated grounds were invaded by the clans to your rear, or were these all solid gains and garrisons left behind?

The main thorn in my side as Oda is those WM/SA armies in Ise and Yamashiro at the start of the game. I've gone into these in an early stage (H0 units) with a 2:1 advantage and still been cut to shreds. If I don't attack early they generally get the chance to mobilise an extra WM or two in each territory, plus more archers, then they run out of money when remote provinces get taken (little if any extra units added there). I routinely win these if I can tech up and take 2 or 3 Naginata with me but by then its knocking on for 1550s and the Hojo horde is up to its usual tricks by then.

So you recommend an aggressive, early start. Should I head for the rich lands to the east?

I can't begin to comprehend how you still won, from the Shimazu end and against what must have been an even greater sized Hojo horde. Where was all the money for this coming from?

[EatYerGreens]

I prefer to reserve Naginata for Bridge defence. If I'm being attacked at all, it's generally an army 2:1 or more greater than mine and they hold out remarkably well. Their slow movement is no disadvantage when they are doing a nearly static role. Seal the bridge end and have the archers either side, right up by the river bank to mess up approaching units. Keep an eye on the Nag's fatigue and swap them for another unit or some YS, as and when appropriate.

I've tried using them for bridge attack - once. Armoured as they may be, they are not arrow proof and the slow movement meant that nearly half the unit was gone before they even got to the other side. I don't know if you've noticed this but when units (any kind) do make it across, they insist on 'forming up' before moving further forward, or engaging other units, unless the counter attack comes to them. So, after half died on the bridge, most of the rest were sitting ducks during the forming up stage and that unit began to rout before any serious contact with the enemy.
I decided this was a rather shameful waste of 400 koku and never tried it again. Not first unit across, anyway.

What works for me is to take about 3 cadred units and maybe 1 or 2 'sacrificial' YA units in the general's stack. The small units attract just as many arrows as a full unit and, with fewer men in them are harder to hit, per volley. Send in the next biggest unit, in turn, and eventually the YAs. By the time they've done, most of the enemy arrows are spent and it's safe to send in my 'serious' units. I set the routed remnants of the cadres/YAs to withdraw from the field, so as to bring in any reinforcements and then start to make a move across.

For the early/aggressive start approach I'm going to have to have a serious think about how to win these with an army of only 5 or 6 units and no cadres to tease the AI with.

[Adrian II]

I decided this was a rather shameful waste of 400 koku and never tried it again. Not first unit across, anyway.

At least we agree on this point, EatYerGreens. As you've spotted I'm not advocating the use of YA only, I liked raising other units as well during Oda campaigns, particularly Warrior Monks.

I'm afraid I wiped my hard disc in order to install MTW so some of my answers may be a bit off the mark for lack of checking. And the Oda campaign I mentioned was two years ago, so I don't recall all the details. I wouldn't know the exact prologue to my flight from Owari anymore. However, the relevant points I do remember. One is that as Oda you have no choice but to attack. You have too many borders to defend which prevents you from teching up like your neighbours, so you better tackle them on their home turf before they get funny ideas about yours. I believe on the first or second turn I'd take Imagawa's bridge province of Mikawa, that was always a monster for Koku if I remember well. Isn't Imagawa the idiot who keeps invading Shinano from turn one? Wait till he comes back bleeding all over Mikawa, then give him a sharp talking to.

The other thing is the rebels. They'll sit tight and smile at you for at least the first ten turns -- or was it fifteen, I don't remember -- as long as you don't call them bad names. By that time you should have started raising your own monks to deal with them. You do that in Owari. Don't go for farming improvements there, you'll find your Koku as you plunder away. Build a large castle in Owari on the first turn, you ought to be churning out monks by turn fifteen. Monks and YA with some Yari for flanking make a fine, fast attack force.

As for my move West, I actually went all out and didn't leave any garrisons behind because I didn't have the troops for that. I made money from ransacking those beautiful Mori and Ronin provinces. By the time I reached Satsuma, Shimazu had been dealt with by Imagawa's forces from the northern part of the island. I believe I held on to Nagato for its Armoury, yeah, I remember that was where I made my first stand after running from Owari. I held on to Nagato where my units were lucky to be retrained with armour upgrades.

Hope this makes sense to you. I believe no unit is "fodder" except in the hands of a lousy general. I'm not sure, but I believe as Oda you start with one YA genera with a single star or sumpin', I don't recall. Anyway, by the end of my campaign I had some warm feelings for this guy since he survived some gruesome battles and now carried five stars. He was just an icon on a screen, I know, but in the course of that campaign it had become invested with some very satisfying experiences related to my own attitude to life. You get that only in the very best games. Far as I'm concerned, STW is up there with chess, maybe not on a par but close.

[TosaInu]

Hello,

Yari ashigaru in SP? I frequently use them, up to 50% when playing Oda. They're cheap and fast, not totally worthless and indeed quite good when having a few upgrades. Not everyone is going to agree with me, but due to the system they can become the most allround, cost effective unit available. There are some drawbacks, but you need great skill/luck to beat it.

AdrianII. It was Oda's general Toyotomi Hideyoshi who was ashigaru. He climbed the ladder and finally became Taiko (only nobility could get the shogun title iirc). Sort of an American dream in Medieval Japan :)

[Adrian II]

It was Oda's general Toyotomi Hideyoshi who was ashigaru.

Yeah, the "sandal-bearer", now I remember! Thank you for reminding me, TosaInu.

[EatYerGreens]

AdrianII,

Ah, it seems you were getting money/booty for attacking provinces and you had unit retraining in your version. I was talking about the (now antiquated) original version of STW. Starts in 1530. Easy starts with 5000 koku, Normal starts on 3000 koku, and I haven't dared to find out how poor you start off in Hard or Expert.

Oda has only one castle to begin with, so I've generally been turn-1 spending on an Owari crop upgrade and at least a second castle (dojo to follow) - purely so as to be able to mobilise as fast as the other clans are doing. I sometimes spend so long playing catch-up with their army sizes that I never get any prospects of attacking anywhere. For the first few years I'm eating up about 1000 per year on troop units, until the cashflow cuts my options (the poor harvests generally hit the funds pot first). Time to rethink. Let's see, 1000 for the LgCas, 1500 for the temple (luckily the Tranquil Garden is there already) 4.5 years total building time then 500 per unit (60) for the WMs. If the budget will stretch to it (in 1533 and 35) and I can bide my time with the puny garrisons I start the game with without getting invaded in the meantime, it might be worth a try... I really ought to blat Mikawa first, as a buffer against Owari being attacked whilst building is in progress.

Mikawa crop output isn't great but its worth it to have the river advantage and it's not the end of the world if it has to be abandoned. Also, lack of a castle means you can't get trapped there if you do get out-mobilised by Imagawa and lose a battle.

[shogunKatzumoto]

wow!!!what a response to my first ever thread!!!!!! LOL
i do not use any unit as "fodder" but i do use them as shields(if you will).i'll use ashigaru to charge archers at times using two or three units to one as they are cheap enough that i can usually build a couple when i see the need.as for bridge battles.......man i hate bridge battles....maybe i am just no good at them or something else....it seems that the only ones i can do is the one perfecture(can't remember the name off hand) that has two bridges......i set up calvary on the side of one bridge and rush my yari samurai or some times a shock troop just for a diversion...then charge my calvary across the other bridge and flank untill i meet my other forces.the main reason i asked about the ashigaru is because of their low morale.....i mean i know they are peasants and all but come on i am sure they have heard of honor?....sometimes i use ashigaru to scare the AI 960 ashigaru vs 480 yari samurai is pretty scary...but when i defend i look more at the fact.....do i have archers? and can i kill more soldiers before they get to me than i have?i mean if i can kill half an army with arrows before i have to use my spears i have a chance....

another question i had was if anyone ever besiges castles or if the always storm it?
i belive it was a takeda clan member (if it wasn't shingen himself) that said battles are won with swords and spears not rice and salt....

[shogunKatzumoto]

also was wondering if anyone would object to a thread for topics based on tactics and war stories....

[Adrian II]

I was talking about the (now antiquated) original version of STW.

I guess that would explain our difference of perception. I never played the original version, maybe it suffers from bugs that had been taken care of by the time I bought my copy of STW/MI. I like your attention to detail and the way you calculate your options, but may I be so bold as to suggest that you are too defensive. You see, it takes one to know one. When I was a boy of eleven years old I was too withdrawn to make friends and participate in events. Upon learning this, a friend of my parents who was a former fencing champion took me along to his gym to give me a couple of fencing lessons. I was issued a mask and a floret (the lightest of fencing arms), explained the basics and told to defend myself. Now this was a man in his forties, strong, vigorous and extremely experienced, he attacked me more and more forcefully as the lesson progressed and I was acquitting myself very well, even brilliantly if you consider this was my first floret fight. And that was exactly my weak point, he explained to me afterwards. I was so intent on defending myself, on avoiding risks and preventing myself from being hurt that I didn't even notice when my opponent exposed his chest to a possible touché from me. In the course of a few lessons he taught me to take the initiative, to look for opportunities. I finally managed to land some points with him, in return for which I got royally hurt. He used me as a pin cushion and one time hit me so hard he nearly broke my thumb, but it was worth it. Chess taught me another thing or two about the advantages of offensive play. I found the same challenge in STW. I started out calculating, looking for secure borders, building castles and massing "properly" mixed armies, until I realised this was getting me nowhere. So, my suggestion would be that you do some calculations on Imagawa's position for a change, and see what losing Mikawa does to his budget and military build-up, especially if he gets stuck in Shinano on the one hand and in Chikugo on the other as he used to do in my version. Ally with Takeda, he's "trustworthy" (in terms of the game) and as long as his western lands and armies continue to be a pain in Mori's a** you can even take Harima. Of course your version may be different in other respects as well, in which case I shall shut up for the rest of this thread. I've made my point about YA anyway and I've been rambling on long enough now.

[Del Arroyo]

I never used Ashi except to fill in gaps.

Mid- to Late-Game, the key is upgraded Monks with good Cav. The key is quality regardless of cost. If you have a full stack of good quality troops you can win any battle, even if your enemy has five full stacks defending. Only the first stack ever gets a chance to fight, and with an edge in quality you will win even if you're a sucky general.

But the key is high quality in YOUR stack. Ashis may be cost effective, but they just don't cut it in absolute terms.

..

Generally, though, I think you guys could be very right. I never saw much in Ashis except as stop-gap, but I never really experimented. I did use alot of them as Oda.

DA

[Maeda Toshiie]

AdrianII. It was Oda's general Toyotomi Hideyoshi who was ashigaru. He climbed the ladder and finally became Taiko (only nobility could get the shogun title iirc). Sort of an American dream in Medieval Japan :)

The shogun title is only attainable by the Bushi (samurai, different from the noble families), though by tradition only descendents of the Minamoto (Ashikaga were and Tokugawa claimed to be). However, Nobunaga was offered the title though he declined it (that is another story altogether).

Technically, the title of Taiko is more prestigious (and only held by the 5 regent families, except for Hideyoshi and Hidetsugu) compared to that of Shogun, by the court ranking that is. Titles aside, his power was based on loyalties of other daimyos, his armies and his generalship.

Implications of the issue of court rankings is quite above my head actually. Guess I have been spending too much time reading samurai history.

[Admin]

also was wondering if anyone would object to a thread for topics based on tactics and war stories....

That's fine with me shogunKatzumoto. You may enjoy reading this: http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/maltz/

[Adrian II]

You may enjoy reading this: http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/maltz/

You can say that again. The first story, Oda Nobuhide the Brave, took my breath away. Looks like I could learn a few things from that gentleman. Next to his opening moves I look like a complete turtle, haha! Thanks again, TosaInu.

[Admin]

Hello AdrianII,

Glad you liked it.

My style of play is also slow, lately we were doing a dare devil combat with Shimazu on expert. I didn't complete within 13 years, but it didn't went that bad https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31511

It's nice to change tactics every now and then.

[Adrian II]

Glad you liked it.

That daredevil campaign caused some more flashbacks. Barocca writes somewhere: "I kept merging damaged units into ones with upgrades." He is writing about his Shimazu campaign there, but this is also one of the tricks you exploit when going all-out with Oda. You can raise new low-level Ashigaru almost anywhere. As long as you keep at least some of your upgraded AY soldiers (raised in Iga and Mino most likely) alive on the battlefield, you can always merge them with those noobs afterwards and have a full complement of upgraded YA again. Same applies to the ever-replenishing hamamoto, which enables you to send your daimyo charging the enemy head-on whilst your YA flank them on two sides. However, this can only be done with +1 YA, otherwise they rout. No matter if your daimyo has seven stars and nine morale, it's remoteness from leader and rest of army + closeness of enemy that sets them routing. With Oda's YA armies you learn to play Archers differently, too. Either you bring lots of Archers or you don't bring any at all. Your enemy has a particularly dangerous unit of, say, WM+2v+2a, you bring three units of Archers specifically to take care of them, preferably even before your battle lines actually touch. I don't remember the figures, but I did some calculations back then, the gist being that the combined fire of three SA units has about the same effect as a Heavy Cavalry charge, only your SA don't suffer losses and they can redirect their fire in a matter of seconds, which makes them more flexible in a sense than HC. Oh boy, I was a complete STW addict, I can see that now, but judging by these files I wasn't the only one...

[shogunKatzumoto]

ADMIN: thanks for the link i will have to check it ou t more in depth when i have some more time (bookmarked)
and unless i'm too late i will attempt to open a new thread on tatics and war stories.

[TosaInu]

And another link for STW tips http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/

[Adrian II]

i will attempt to open a new thread on tactics and war stories.

I dunno, shogunKatzumoto, remember we're just a side-show. Been to the Colosseum lately? Hotdam, with dem hippies gittin' all worked up over a bunch a German cheerleaders I dunno whuts to think innimore.

[shogunKatzumoto]

never been there ,sorry

hippies ..... german cheerleaders.......(sure it isn't the football team in skirts?)

:grabbing my swords : i'll have to check it out some time......

thanks all see you after the week end!