"How to Use Horse Archers" in Rome: Total War

[Oleander Ardens]

It has been a long , long time since my last reply here - finally some time for EB and the .org now


About the indiviual formations:

As Dough and R'as have rightly observed that it has become very easy to use now HA stacks to do the simple fact that you can turn a HA unit into a very compact size. As there is no more rankpenality, massive quadratic blocks are the way to go when very heavy in HA or footarchers.

Vanilla HA and the Scythian Noblewomen require more space by default, but the problem is greatly reduced with the block system. I personally hardly ever turn them into loose formation, as indiviudal archers are very often easy prey for multiplie cavaly charges.

The three male EliteHorseArchers are very densely packed, making their overall required space small indeed. These guys do in consequence profit much more from the loose formation, especially as they are far better to win missile duels, having more armor.


HA vs. Archers

As the footarchers are now a fare less powerful counter you arn't usually pressed to defeat them if there are only a few. Things change when there are elite archers in great quantity around, but this is seldomly the case.
In this occasions the "classical" cav. tactic works fine. Thanks to your speed you can concentrate your force in one point, braking resistence there with the combination of the charges of two-three cav. units. The HA factions all have a good lancer to do this job very well, the Parthians can even use Elephants.


How to counter enemy HA?

Well, as we all found out they are one of the most hated enemies on the battlefield, especially with factions lacking in elite archers and good cavalry. And on VH/VH HA are surly overpowerd compared to other units, as they have a ranged attack and are actually hard to defeat with light cav.
When you combine this with the climate bonus, things can turn very ugly when using light cav. This is the lesson I learned after having been soundly beaten by Scythia in a winterbattle playing the Macs. Two LL each were unable to defeat a lonly HA.

So I would tend in VH/VH to use archers in quadratic blocks and in loose formation (fire at will/stand ground/skirmish off), protected by spears with big shields and some cav. Keep close togheter and boost the morale with the general. You need patience and try to avoid routing at all costs; If it starts once you will ver likely loose the whole army.

Make good use of the terrain and hope for the best.


Cheers
OA

[Doug-Thompson]

It has been a long , long time since my last reply here - finally some time for EB and the .org now

Good to hear from you, OA.


About the indiviual formations:

The three male EliteHorseArchers are very densely packed, making their overall required space small indeed. These guys do in consequence profit much more from the loose formation, especially as they are far better to win missile duels, having more armor.

Hmm. Will have to try putting PerCav on loose ...

How to counter enemy HA?

Well, as we all found out they are one of the most hated enemies on the battlefield, especially with factions lacking in elite archers and good cavalry. And on VH/VH HA are surely overpowerd compared to other units, as they have a ranged attack and are actually hard to defeat with light cav.

I tend to agree here, too, but won't fully go over to that view until more countermeasures have been tried.

Frankly, I can't think of a good countermeasure to HA on VH, except that HA on VH are controlled by the AI. There are weaknesses in the AI to exploit, such as pinchers and map edges, but not in the unit.

When you combine this with the climate bonus, things can turn very ugly when using light cav. This is the lesson I learned after having been soundly beaten by Scythia in a winterbattle playing the Macs. Two LL each were unable to defeat a lonely HA.

Saw your description of that on another thread. Ouch.

[Doug-Thompson]

Looks like the big questions have been addressed. Hopefully, there will be some definitive test results someday but those will deserve a thread of their own. The remaining tactical questions I can think of probably need threads of their own, too.

1. What are the best countermeasures for HA, and what should HA do to counter-counter them? I really think top-notch foot archers like Chosen Archer Warbands can put up a good fight if the proper tactics are worked out, including co-ordination with other units.

2. Are the techniques worked out on this thread good for chariots, too? What about javelin-armed cavalry, like Numidians?

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Also, in the finer points-category, HA units will start firing at a target from a distance if you order a melee charge. Persian cav, for instance, will fire from a distance before charging with swords.

This means that if you order Persian Cav to melee with some fleeing cavalry, for instance, they will start firing and keep firing into the fleeing unit's backside until they catch up or the routers get away. It's a nice way to have Persian Cav pursue a unit without having to micromanage.

[R'as al Ghul]

Looks like the big questions have been addressed. 1. What are the best countermeasures for HA, and what should HA do to counter-counter them? I really think top-notch foot archers like Chosen Archer Warbands can put up a good fight if the proper tactics are worked out, including co-ordination with other units.

2. Are the techniques worked out on this thread good for chariots, too? What about javelin-armed cavalry, like Numidians?

I agree this case seems to be closed.
1. When I encounter enemy HA at the beginning of a Hard or VeryHard campaign, I try to pull them into melee with 2 or more of my own HA. The problem is the +4 or +7 attack bonus in these levels. The Ai knows that and will charge your HA with his own. In a 1vs1 melee you can only loose. If you happen to have some camels around or even better melee Cav you can easily rout them. If I face armies with several HA I try to seperate them from the main army to deal with them one by one. Cantabrian circle helps to minimize casualties in a shoot out.
Foot archers have two weaknesses. 1. They can't shoot on the run. 2. weak melee. They need to be protected and put on hold position.

2. No, chariots are a different category and I can't tell how to use them most effectivly. Jav-Cav on the other hand works pretty much like HA. There's one thing to consider however, their ammo is spent very fast. I don't have any stats at hand but even if they have the same amount of projectiles as HA do, they run out of Javs very fast. Tactically this means that you have to consider on which units you use them. Where are they needed most? You can't just let them run around shooting at random targets like HA. Jav-Cav needs more foreward planning. I would even recommend to switch f@w off.

R'as

[Doug-Thompson]

Jav-Cav on the other hand works pretty much like HA. There's one thing to consider however, their ammo is spent very fast. I don't have any stats at hand but even if they have the same amount of projectiles as HA do, they run out of Javs very fast. Tactically this means that you have to consider on which units you use them. Where are they needed most? You can't just let them run around shooting at random targets like HA. Jav-Cav needs more foreward planning. I would even recommend to switch f@w off.

Basic JavCav have only six shots, but have much better melee than vanilla HA.

I haven't played with JavCav much. I don't like Greek City or Seleucid campaigns. However, this brand of missile cavalry seem to be more "disruptors" than "destroyers."

Greek militia cavalry can whittle a large 120-man militia pikeman unit down to about 99 men if they're left alone. They're also reasonably resistant to archers when the JavCav are using cantabrian circle.

So I'd consider using them like ultra-skirmishers. Turn fire at will off, as you suggested, put them in a circle and send them to attack good infantry. If the enemy archers fire back, they will have to halt (disrupting the formation of an attacker) and will waste a lot of arrows. Also, the JavCav can charge the archers if they get a chance. If the JCs are charged by decent melee cav, have them run away. This distracts the enemy cavalry and tires them out.

Keep your own infantry back until the JavCav have caused their casualties and disruption, and worked their way around the sides. Once the main infantry lines have clashed, charge enemy archers and the rear of enemy melee infantry.

JavCav really shine once the rout begins. They're fast and have decent enough melee to wipe out routers.

Disruption, not destruction: The old motto of M:TW HA.

Also, there appears to be no reason to put JavCav in a square. They lack the range. A long, thin line is better for melee but makes them harder to maneuver than HA.

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Edited P.S. Some rather detailed micro tips are in this thread

[Kanamori]

Sorry if this was discussed somewhere and I didn't see it, but does the accuracy or kills increase w/ a thinner line, as in MTW: VI? Also, If I want to kill all or most of the army, I tend to make armies of heavy inf, a few heavy cavs, and light cavs to chase down the enemy and flank to cause the initial rout. I've found armies tending to have lots of cav do very well in getting all or most of the enemy troops.

[Doug-Thompson]

Sorry if this was discussed somewhere and I didn't see it, but does the accuracy or kills increase w/ a thinner line, as in MTW: VI?

I don't think that ever got a thorough test. However, the gain in accuracy would have to be pretty massive to offset the other advantages of a square formation: Less friendly fire problems, much easier to handle, no need to change facing, concentrated fire in any direction. I haven't noticed any such increase in accuracy.

However, it does seen that thin lines are harder to hit. Foor archers seem to have a hard time getting any kills on a long, thin line of HA -- or any other fast unit -- that is running directly toward or away from them. I can't prove that, though.

[m4rt14n]

Anyone ever use Cat Camels in conjunction with PH or HA ? They seem very much unused, being in the highest tech level and all.

[Doug-Thompson]

Anyone ever use Cat Camels in conjunction with PH or HA ? They seem very much unused, being in the highest tech level and all.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance.

The stats are great, but I only play campaigns. By the time I can get them, the game is practically over.