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Thread: Hard-Coded Limits

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    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Hard-Coded Limits

    (This thread is duplicated here. The threads will be maintained in duplicate, with all changes in one being made to the other as well.)

    This thread is devoted to discovering the hard-coded limits for various moddable text-file things. For instance, the game doesn't accept unit sizes of greater than 60, or an HP value of more than 15, or more than 500 units. This information is critical to would-be modders who may want to, for instance, double all units' HP—this would lead to elephants being completely screwed over, since their HP would be effectively half of the entered value.

    The format of the entries will be as follows:

    Stat: Min [number], max [number]. [How we know the min limit], [how we know the max limit].

    If you have a stat to contribute, or have a better or more specific source for the limit than is stated, please post! For instance, I can't remember where I saw any of the dev statements that I cite, or where someone posted evidence for any other limits. Specific cites help!

    If you plan to do testing, obviously some things are more important than others. Things like attack, charge, and range values are critical, whereas the max rank spacing is pretty unimportant. Still, everything helps to make this a better document.

    descr_model_battle.txt
    Overall model number: Min ?, max 255. Experimentation.

    descr_rebel_factions.txt
    Units per event: Min 1?, max 20 for non-regional events at least. Experimentation. Extras cause error message with -show_err but possibly no other ill effects.

    descr_sm_factions.txt
    Faction limit: Min ?, max 21. Experimentation. Note that the maximum must include, for unexpanded RTW, one rebel faction, four Roman factions (including a Senate and the Roman alliance), six barbarian factions, four Greek factions, three Eastern factions, two Carthaginian factions, and an Egyptian faction, as far as faction-culture correspondence goes. In BI the culture restrictions and Roman alliance/Senate limitations are lifted, but there still must presumably be a rebel faction. Fewer factions than 21 are possible.

    export_descr_ancillaries.txt
    ExcludedAncillaries: Min 0, max 3. Default usage, experimentation. Extras cause CTD.
    Effects: Min 0, max 8. Assumption, experimentation. Extras make it impossible to gain ancillary through a trigger and cause erratic effects if an existing ancillary is transferred.

    export_descr_buildings.txt
    Hidden resources: Min 1?, max 63 or 64 (not sure which). Extras cause a CTD, not including rome causes a CTD (I think), not including italy prevents Marian reforms (I think). Experimentation, experimentation. But see here for a way to overcome the limitation.
    Overall building tree number: Min ?, max 64. Experimentation. Extras CTD (error: "Settlement in [X] region has not been given [X] a core building. Any settlements above village level must have an appropriate core building! This settlement is level 1, and should have a level 0 core building.").
    Levels per building tree: Min 1, max 9. Assumption, experimentation. Extras CTD.
    Upgrades per building level: Min 0, max 8. Default usage, logic based on previous. Levels can only be upgraded to levels listed after them on the "levels" line.
    Units recruitable in a given city, not counting agents: Min 0, max 32. Default usage, experimentation. Extras CTD.

    export_descr_character_trait.txt
    Levels per trait: Min 1, max 9. Assumption, experimentation.
    Points required for a threshold: Min 1, max ≥ 600. Assumption, experimentation.
    Points assignable per trigger: Min 0, max ≥ 100. Assumption, experimentation.
    Antitraits: Min 0, max 10 (1.2)/20? (1.6). Default usage, experimentation/experimentation.

    export_descr_unit.txt
    Overall unit number: Min ?, max 500. JeromeGrasdyke. Extras CTD?
    Units per faction: Min ?, max 100. Experimentation. Extras don't appear for custom battles, but otherwise function normally.
    Units buildable per city: Min 0, max 32. Default usage, experimentation. Extras CTD.
    Men per non-general unit: Min 6, max 60. Experimentation. Extras CTD?
    Men per general unit: Min ?, max 31. Experimentation. Extras ignored, even if they come from another source (Influence, personal security, or faction leader/heir status).
    Extras per unit: Min 2 (but 0 is okay as well), max ?. Experimentation.
    Collision mass: Min ?, max ≥ 100. Default usage.
    Number of officers: Min 0, max 3. Text file description.
    Number of mount effects: Min 0, max 3. Text file description.
    Mount bonus: ?
    Number of attributes: Min 0, max none? Experimentation, guess.
    Number of formations: Min 1, max 2. Text file description.
    HP: Min ?, max 15. Dev. Extra considered 15.
    Attack factor: Min 1 (missile), max 63. Experimentation, user interface. Zero results in no missile attack. Extra considered 63.
    Charge bonus: Min 0, max 63. Default usage, user interface. Extra considered 63.
    Missile range: Min 20 (at least for javelins), max special. Experimentation, experimentation. Every projectile has an effective maximum range as well, indirectly determined by the velocity and angle ranges specified in descr_projectile_new.txt; increasing this file's range sufficiently will require you to increase the velocity and/or angle range in that file for the change to work properly. Later versions of RTW give an error message if the velocity doesn't allow the stated range. More range than is possible will be effectively reduced to the maximum possible for the velocity.
    Missile ammo: Min 2 (but 0 is okay as well), max ?. Experimentation (and guess). Note that ammunition is determined per man, not per unit, and it apparently counts even men who don't actually use the ammo, such as drivers of chariots (experimentation). Ammunition use is tracked per unit (I'm pretty sure), not per man, so if only half of your unit is firing at their target, they'll effectively have twice the ammo.
    Undocumented kill rate variable: ?
    Number of weapon attributes: Min 0, max none? Experimentation, guess.
    Armor factor: Min 0, max 63. Default usage, user interface. Extra considered 63.
    Defensive skill factor: Min 0, max 63. Default usage, user interface. Extra considered 63.
    Shield factor: Min 0, max 31. Default usage, user interface. Extra considered 31.
    Stat_heat: ?
    Terrain modifiers: ?
    Base morale: Min 0, max ?. Default usage.
    Charge distance: ?
    Fire delay: ?
    Turns to build: Min 0, max 244. Experimentation, experimentation. Extra ignored.

    map_regions.txt
    Resources per province: Min 0?, max 9? Assumption, experimentation. Extras ignored?

    map_regions.tga
    Number of provinces: Min ?, max 200. Experimentation.
    Number of landmasses: Min ?, max 20. JeromeGrasdyke. Effects for extras unknown (not CTD).

    Models
    Number of faces/polys: Min ?, max 20,000 (for campaign-map models).
    Last edited by Simetrical; 01-12-2006 at 00:56.
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  2. #2
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    There is a limit of 245 models - all entries in descr_model_battle.txt count toward this limit. So that is unit models, officers, mounts, animals, et al.
    Cogita tute


  3. #3
    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Isn't the minimum hp value 1- It would be pointless to have anything lower


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    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    We tested the limit for models, it is actually 255, not 245.
    Cogita tute


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    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Okay, thanks!

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Missile attack minimum = 1 (at 0 the unit is displayed as out of ammo when in batlle--or at least it was in 1.1, so you had no missile attack.) Also, missile attack is converted to integers. If you enter 1.5 you get a 1. 0.5 = 0. -1 = 0. I determined these from play testing.

    Minimum number of men = 6, but mounts can be lower for elephants at least. This can be used to reduce the size of elephant units. (For forest_elephants the number of crew must be double the number of elephants to go smaller...else RTW adds extra elephants when you test them on the field. e.g. 6,4 is the same as 6,6; but 8,4 gives reduced number of elephants by 1/3 and an extra crewman on each. Haven't tried 6,2 or 6,1 but the Oliphants work with only 2.)

    Mass works up to 100 at least (Oliphant). I have used 99 before in my own tests. Haven't tried higher.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Minimum number of dogs and pigs is 2 per handler.
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  8. #8
    CA CA JeromeGrasdyke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    The unit limit was raised it in the 1.2 patch to 500, but I'm not sure about the models limit... it may have been kept in order to keep the tex memory requirements under control.
    Last edited by JeromeGrasdyke; 02-04-2005 at 16:45.
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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    What about number of provinces?
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  10. #10
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Jerome, any chance we can persuade you to open up that model limit as well? If we want to overload the memory, to let us make our own mistakes?

    On the unit limit being raised - beautiful!

    Edit: And what eadingas said - we've hit a wall at 199. It would be great if we could move past that :)
    Last edited by khelvan; 02-04-2005 at 17:03.
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  11. #11
    CA CA JeromeGrasdyke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    The other limits (200 provinces, 255 unit models, 20 landmasses) have been left in place, and it's unlikely that there will be another patch which will change those. Oh well...
    "All our words are but crumbs that fall down from the feast of the mind."
    -- from 'The Prophet' by Kahlil Gibran

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Aargh...Oh, CA, why do you mock us so! :( (there was a limit of 20 landmasses? good to know)
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    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    This isn't the sort of thing you would release an, ahh, "unofficial" patch to address, is it?
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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Yeah... how about a 'for fans only' patch? Or even, if you don't want to get extra work, let one of our coders do it :)
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    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Or just give us permission to mod RTW.exe so we can increase the limits ourselves?
    Cogita tute


  16. #16

    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    minamum is over 5, i tried it lolz

  17. #17
    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    I can see why Jerome doesn't show up here that often, since he instantly gets bombarded with requests every time he shows his face. Thanks for raising the unit limit, and for telling us about it! Europa Barbarorum will be happy about that, I suspect.

    Anyway, all submissions have been added. I don't know what file to list province number and region number under, though.

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  18. #18
    Grand Dude Member Dead Moroz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    What is "landmass"?

  19. #19
    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=landmass

    Basically, a landmass is an unbroken piece of land—an island or a continent. Presumably the twenty-landmass limit is to simplify pathfinding.

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    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Does that mean there can be only 20 accessible islands??
    (I pity those who'd want to do an Earthsea mod...)
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    Member Member massamuusi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Thank you so much for the list! Words are not enough to describe what it means to people who think there's this one or two things they just can't live with in the game, and need to change them. Now we can see if it can be done without having to format the drive, if we exaggarate a little ^^
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  22. #22
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Per CA, the number of factions is limited to 21 (20, not counting the senate).

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43291
    Cogita tute


  23. #23
    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    The number of factions, their cultures, and the intra-Roman relationships are all entirely unmoddable. I intended this to be a list of hard-coded limits on things we can mod, not a list of things we can't mod. If I wanted to do that, I'd have to add thirty bajillion things, from bribery costs to testudo formations. That's a worthy project as well, but a different one.

    -Simetrical
    Last edited by Simetrical; 02-10-2005 at 03:59.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Another limit for the list: Javelin ammo cannot be less than 2 -- trying to use 1 exits to the desktop every time. I did this once a few weeks back, and again tonight with different units. Perhaps it could be zero for out of ammo (as with archers)...I didn't try that...but anyway: 2 works, 1 exits during loading. I have not tested pila yet, but I expect the same.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  25. #25
    when you think its over... Member Lord Hal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Quote Jerome Grasdyke
    Is it possible to create a new faction/rename an existing one, and if so how?

    It is possible, but it will be a lot of work. There are many things which go into the look of a coherent faction: names lists, banners, tech tree entries and their descriptions, unit lists, correctly-coloured unit models, and so on. Covering all of this in detail is beyond the scope of a simple question, but all the conversions from a faction tag into the code's internal identifiers run through the same code, and so if you wanted to change the Julian Romans into something else, you could do a search for 'romans_julii' and be reasonably certain that you've caught all instances where the faction is directly referred to. You'll see these faction tags all over the text files, so I won't list them here. Unfortunately, there may be places where it is implicit; none come to mind, but any sequences of numbers or properties in sets of 21 would be suspicious. There will be some trial-and-error involved...


    So factions should actually be moddable.

  26. #26
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    They are moddable, but they can't be added.
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  27. #27
    when you think its over... Member Lord Hal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    @eadingas

    I saw the appropriate - new - thread immediately after I posted this quote.

    Thanks

  28. #28
    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Another limit for the list: Javelin ammo cannot be less than 2 -- trying to use 1 exits to the desktop every time.
    Thanks. I'm guessing this is for all missile weapons—let me know if you can confirm.

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  29. #29
    Member Member Nero's Avatar
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    Question Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    I'd like to know
    Is there a limit to the number of temples in a city that is modable?
    Or is this hardcoded too.

    I'm trying to make multiple temples at once in one city available, but until now I was unsuccessful.
    If there is a hard-coded limit, I think I could just quit my project.

  30. #30
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hard-Coded Limits

    You can only have one building named 'temple' in the engine.
    However you can have multiple buildings which are called 'temple' in game description, but in engine they must all be called something else - 'houseofworship', whatever you like. Just not 'temple_'
    Other hardcoded buildings include everything with hinterland_, ports, and core buildings - if you want to have a couple of them, you must use different names (and of course they won't behave in the same way as the hardcoded ones, this is why they're hardcoded :)
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