Height Advantage

[AntiochusIII]

Has anyone figured out exactly what kind of bonuses they're giving for being higher in a fight?

That's because in M/M game, I use a smaller army of militia hoplite only (1st hoplite) to beat a large army of armoured hoplite (3rd) without losing a single unit because I'm higher on a steep battleground. This must only be a height advantage (not a single one! They beat the crap out of me with flat plain battles)

I managed to produce the same results in similar battles.

And I know it's harder to shoot at those higher than you.

But what is the exact benefits of height? Experts, please?

[Byzantine Prince]

I was wonderign the same thing. People say that there's no difference in arrows fired from different heights so i don't know about acual hand to hand fighting. It should have some extra power.

[drone]

Maybe related to the phalanx slope issues?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43939 #23, it's been discussed in another thread as well. It appears that the phalanx "kill box" doesn't go high or low enough to handle slopes well.

[BeeSting]

Maybe related to the phalanx slope issues?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43939 #23, it's been discussed in another thread as well. It appears that the phalanx "kill box" doesn't go high or low enough to handle slopes well.

You mean they can't angle their spears?

[drone]

You mean they can't angle their spears?

I think they keep them level with respect to gravity. Someone noticed that cav could charge down a slope and completely ignore (go over) the kill zone for a phalanx.

.... found the original...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43253

I wonder if the phalanx kill box size is moddable...

[AntiochusIII]

Thanks, yeah, I think that's the problem.

Still, how come my poor militia guys slaughter them downhill? Is it because my spears can point downwards but theirs can't point upwards?

[Svean]

I seems to be another serious bug... sadly...

[Kraxis]

Noticed the same when I had Militia Hoplites face off with Nile Spearmen. Not as much of a difference but the same result happened.

[hoom]

I actually think there is something more than a bug going on (yes, obviously phalanxes are bugged... so much for fixed) ie terrain bonuses are back.
I've seen differences in range of missiles & without actual proof, its 'felt' to me like fighting uphill/down has altered the combat ballance more in 1.2

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Yeah, it turns out it happens against infantry too and it's only uphill, downhill or sideways is no problem. MikeB replied to my PM about it, I hope he doesn't mind me sharing it:

I had a quick word with a programmer about this, and there is a specific set of conditions that can result in cavalry 'sneaking in' under a line of pike points.
If the pikemen are on ground that is flat or rising with a concave section, the pikemen understand that they shouldn't drive their pike points into the ground. Therefore, they raise their pikes to take account of the rising ground ahead of them. If the cavalry arrive at the right time, they will get past the sharp bits, and be in amongst the men.

Is this a bug? No, I don't think so. I'm of the opinion that this is emergent behaviour. It may also partly explain, of course, why phalanx using factions were, historically, very careful to pick relatively level ground for their battles.

He either didn't understand the extent and frequency or is in denial. I still call it a bug.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

This screenshot should demostrate what's going on:

As you can see the pikes are leveled relative to local ground. I guess the kill box isn't.

[The_Emperor]

Why are you attacking uphill anyway?

Surely it would be better to approach from a different angle, or lure the enemy off that position so you at least fight on relatively even terrain...

I always avoid attacking uphill if I can help it, if I have to take a detour to bring the fight to the enemy and reach the top of the hill, I will do so.

If I have no choice but to fight on a hillside I will do so on the most gentle slope on the hill and I will always lead with an expendable unit of Mercs to act as a speedbump against the enemy charge...

Thats what Mercs are for to die well and be disbanded afetr the battle!

[Red Harvest]

There is definitely some difference in projectile range/power with elevation now. There was some before, but it was hard to see because archery is so friggin' powerful to begin with.

I know how to test the phalanx hill problem specifically...I'll get back to you on this after I run my artificial test.

[Darius]

I thought he said he had the height advantage...why would he be attacking uphill? Not to mention in some situations you dont really have a choice, some maps are almost just entirely on what appears to be on one side of a mountain, and if the defender has their back to the mountain, then any way you attack from will be from uphill.

So far I've noticed several advantages that having the high ground confers. For one, when you're on the defense, your enemy is forced to come to you, and they will have to come uphill, which seems to make them get tired much more sooner than had it been on flat ground. Also, youll notice that your soldiers gain a bonus to their attack (and possibly defense) values depending on the degree of the slope, the closer to 90 degrees (cliff face) you are, the more extreme your bonus, and the closer it is to 180 (flatlands) the smaller the bonus is. That would be to simulate that the soldier with the high ground would be able to strike at the enemies upper body and head, forcing the enemy to hold their shield up higher than usual and the enemy would be forced to make lower attacks that are more easily parried.

I'm not sure if I get any range advantage for my missile units, but I do know that it does give them some advantages, some obvious, some less noticeable but there nonetheless. All missile attacks seem to be more deadly compared to similar attacks on flat ground, and far superior to attacks from lower ground. A less noticeable yet surprisingly helpful advantage is granted when you have a more extreme height advantage. Normally when you place your missile units behind your lines, they end up shooting your men in the backs by accident. Should you have them set back a little bit, they will be above your men enough that they will be firing OVER your men. This way you can even have slingers BEHIND your men that can shoot at the enemy, WITHOUT trying to attack THROUGH your men.

All that combined means that if you have a large enough height advantage, you can destroy a larger, more experienced, and far more expensive army with relative ease.

[Red Harvest]

Man, this combat engine and AI are REALLY screwed up. I just got the most ridiculous set of results I have ever seen. I tried setting Poeni to primary (spear) attack of 50,50 then 50, 1. I set secondary (sword) to 1,1 horse mount effect to +1.

First, I chose the alpine map and tried Roman cav with Poeni AI. This starts with the cav in a hole, so I lured the Poeni downslope, then charged past them so that they had to turn and face me with roles reversed. What do you think they did? With 50 attack/50 charge for spears and 1 attack/1 charge for sword...they charged up using swords!!! DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No, they wouldn't even use phalanx.

So I reversed sides and let them be cav...while I took the spears. Does the AI come tearing down slope at me? Noooooo... It slowly works its way down and only begins a charge when the spear tips strike (whether or not the phalanx was stationary or in motion.)

I tried this with both 50,50, and 50,1 for primary (I thought that maybe the high charge was the cause of the bizarre behaviour so I lowered it.) I am beginning to come to the conclusion that this is the worst AI I have ever played against. I am trying to think of one that is worse on the battlefield at the moment and I am drawing a blank. However, it might be because anything with worse AI I wouldn't have played for more than an hour or two before writing it off.

Regarding elevation effect on phalanx attack, I couldn't quantify more from this test except to say that elevation is having some impact on the phalanx. However, the spears can kill from downslope. I think the problem is that in those situations where the player is charged by cav or charges with cav vs. the phalanx, the phalanx attack is being muted so badly that no kills are happening. The mass effects I have discussed in other threads then result in the cav mauling the phalanx badly, because it is getting its charge, plus attack, plus some elevation effect.

[BeeSting]

Red:

The charge factor does not counted for phalanx formation. You have to use your secondary weapon. So in this case, the AI did the right thing with its 50 charge bonus.

[BeeSting]

Also for cavs, have you tried increasing the charge range? It is set at the same distance as the infantry.

[Red Harvest]

Red:

The charge factor does not counted for phalanx formation. You have to use your secondary weapon. So in this case, the AI did the right thing with its 50 charge bonus.

No, it did not. When the *spear* charge bonus is 1 it makes no sense to charge (like I said I tested that as well as 50...both with 50 for the spear attack.) Plus when it is charging with swords it was getting a whopping 1 + 1 = 2. That is 25 times less than spear attack. And yes, they were charging with their little swords drawn.

I wonder if the same programmer did the trait triggers?

[BeeSting]

No, it did not. When the *spear* charge bonus is 1 it makes no sense to charge (like I said I tested that as well as 50...both with 50 for the spear attack.) Plus when it is charging with swords it was getting a whopping 1 + 1 = 2. That is 25 times less than spear attack. And yes, they were charging with their little swords drawn.

I wonder if the same programmer did the trait triggers?

Sorry if i didn't make myself clear. Let me reiterate: You don't get the charge bonus in phalanx formation, you have to be charging in standard formation to get it.

[Red Harvest]

Also for cavs, have you tried increasing the charge range? It is set at the same distance as the infantry.

No, haven't messed with it. Since the spears are projecting at least 25 meters short of this it shouldn't matter.

[Red Harvest]

Sorry if i didn't make myself clear. Let me reiterate: You don't get the charge bonus in phalanx formation, you have to be charging in standard formation to get it.

And as I said...having a 1 charge bonus is not much...the phalanx should be worth a lot more than that very small bonus or there would be no reason to ever use the phalanx formation. The unit would do better out of phalanx all the time. Yet it normally uses phalanx when it can. I tested both 50 and 1 for charge and it still did the dumbest thing possible.

I didn't mention that it managed to lose every fight...except the one where I mirrored its tactics. With 50/50 for spear attack/charge, it lost to cav with 7 attack--and by a huge margin.

[BeeSting]

And as I said...having a 1 charge bonus is not much...the phalanx should be worth a lot more than that very small bonus or there would be no reason to ever use the phalanx formation. The unit would do better out of phalanx all the time. Yet it normally uses phalanx when it can. I tested both 50 and 1 for charge and it still did the dumbest thing possible.

I didn't mention that it managed to lose every fight...except the one where I mirrored its tactics. With 50/50 for spear attack/charge, it lost to cav with 7 attack--and by a huge margin.

I don't see why and how a phalanx units should get charge bonus?

They were not meant to run and slam into an enemy line, no? Instead they were to steadily march to meet the enemy, then upon contact push with the weight of men in behind and level the enemy line like a lawnmower.

[Red Harvest]

Ok, I've got the basics of the phalanx combat engine worked out like this:

1. If the AI phalanx has a sufficiently large primary attack value advantage (NOT including charge bonus) it will try to charge its opponent. This is non-sensical because it fails to check what the secondary stats are... This was proven to me by testing values like primary 49 attack, 2 charge and secondary 2,2. And the same with primary 2 attack, 49 charge.

2. The primary charge bonus for the phalanx is applied VERSUS the enemy charge. It is not applied when the phalanx unit is out of phalanx and charging and it doesn not appear to be used in melee...although I need to confirm this last bit. When out of phalanx and charging they automatically switch to secondary weapons whether or not they are ordered to. So if you want to cause more casualties to the enemy when they charge the pikes, do so with the phalanx charge bonus. Using a high charge bonus for the phalanx results in lots of initial kills when the enemy charges the phalanx frontally. This part actually makes very good sense. So at least this gives us a better idea of what to work with.

3. The secondary charge bonus doesn't seem to work with secondary weapons. Using 2,2 primary, and 2, 49 secondary, the charge fell flat with their swords drawn, when it should have been a massacre.


Side note: The AI can't use its cav properly. It tries to disengage from melee when winning, then it pulls back about 30 meters and stands there with its rump to the enemy. It then is hit in the rear, but still fails to melee and dies within a few seconds.

[Red Harvest]

I don't see why and how a phalanx units should get charge bonus?

They were not meant to run and slam into an enemy line, no? Instead they were to steadily march to meet the enemy, then upon contact push with the weight of men in behind and level the enemy line like a lawnmower.

That has been a question for some time since the bonus is there in the stats. It looks like it applies to the enemy charge from my testing. This is logical. However, the way the AI is programmed to utilize this is not so logical. With high primary stats, it forgets it even has phalanx formation, and instead tries to mix it up.

And sometimes the phalangites apparently did charge in some fashion with spears lowered according to historical accounts. This would probably be a looser formation and probably requires some drill for proper execution.

[The Storyteller]

Missile units DO have a height advantage. I have noticed that both my arrows and javelins fly further. I'm not sure about power and speed, though.

[Kraxis]

Missile units DO have a height advantage. I have noticed that both my arrows and javelins fly further. I'm not sure about power and speed, though.

Indeed... I have even noticed archers and sligers shoot farther than they can. Meaning that they shoot at targets that are in the red distance. I must say I was surprised.
Otyher times the green zone is expanded and they shoot at proper range (which seems to be longer).

The most marked difference is with javelins and pila. They are now hugely powerful from a hill. You do not want to face a farily large Roman army on a hill. That is suicide.

But I'm rather dismayed that Mike hasn't understood the problem, an almost even more dismayed that the AI acts so strange.

[Kraxis]

Multiposts...

[Kraxis]

Mulriposts...

[Kraxis]

Multiposts...

[MacBeth]

Nice quadrouple post Krax