Numidian Slingers in campaign

**player1** · 03-11-2005, 16:46

What's the point?
Already with Practice Range you can build Archers that are superior.

Why would you upgrade it to get Slingers?

**Old Celt** · 03-11-2005, 16:51

Two reasons:

1) slingers can be a saving grace against chariots (Egypt)

2) it is just the next step toward the very important onager when you build the catapult range.

The Numidian tech tree is kinda sparse, but there you have it. Pretty frustrating it takes 2 turns to build a Numidian Legionary who isn't any better than a Principe!

**player1** · 03-11-2005, 16:56

Originally Posted by Old Celt

Two reasons:

1) slingers can be a saving grace against chariots (Egypt)

Really?
I tried looking in units.txt files and heavn't found that they get any bonus against chariots.
Or there is some difference between using stones and arrows?

Originally Posted by Old Celt

2) it is just the next step toward the very important onager when you build the catapult range.

Very true.

Originally Posted by Old Celt

The Numidian tech tree is kinda sparse, but there you have it. Pretty frustrating it takes 2 turns to build a Numidian Legionary who isn't any better than a Principe!

They have better Stamina.

But, seriously, better something then nothing.

**Old Celt** · 03-11-2005, 17:04

It's strange, I know they don't get bonuses against chariots, but for some reason they (the slingers) seem to do better against them than archers of the same experience level. Well, they are cheap enough, in any event.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing Numidia, but I think they really got shortchanged for unit selection when they are supposed to be "best known for their HEAVY CAVALRY" according to the faction description, yet they have no heavy cavalry units at all, and can't even build elephants like Carthage. If they didn't have camel cavalry, I think it would be nearly impossible to stop enemy heavy cav as Numidia. Luckily, those stinky camels are pretty good at scaring the horsies with their odoriferous emanations.

**Arrowhead** · 03-11-2005, 18:04

Slinger are better against armoured troops I think.

**Red Harvest** · 03-11-2005, 19:28

No there is no advantage that I can see, it is just an oddity created by the building order, a problem overlooked by CA when they set up Numidia. Part of the cause is that Numidia is getting them from being part of "ct_carthage." Carthage gets slingers at the building level later than Numidia gets archers. Therefore, Numidia also gets slingers, when Carthage does, even if it is not useful.

Comparing stats: slingers have no attack advantage vs. chariots when compared to archers. They give up 40 meters of range (80 vs. 120.) They give up 3 attack points (4 vs. 7). They receive no mount bonus, nor do they have armour piercing and have no special ability such as flaming arrows. The only advantages for slingers are that they cost 40 denarii less to purchase (same upkeep) and they have 2 pts. of extra defense for their shield compared to archers.

Why did Numidia get archers earlier than Carthage gets slingers? I'm not sure. Perhaps it was only due to the culture grouping issue for structures/units. Or perhaps it was caused by the Egyptian archer and chariot heavy armies (a weak attempt at balancing vs. steroid-pumped Egypt?)

Numidia is special because it gets its Numidian javelinmen not from the first level missile structure, but from the first level infantry structure. This creates a "hole" for the first level missile structure. CA put archers in this hole.

The Javelinmen coming with the 1st level infantry structure is unusual, but a reasonable choice for Numidia. Numidia's infantry were primarily light javelinmen. Heavier spearmen types were not the mainstay of their armies. Hence they get their spearmen at the next level.

**drone** · 03-11-2005, 20:01

A possible advantage for slingers against chariots might be the flatter trajectory and faster projectile. If the chariots are moving around, maybe the slingers get in more hits, even though they are weaker.

As for the Numidian troop tree, don't forget that Numidia is "unplayable". I get the impression that the unplayables in general didn't get as much of the developer's attention as the playable factions. Missing bodyguard upgrades, unit inconsistencies between custom and campaign, that kind of thing.

**Old Celt** · 03-11-2005, 21:35

I've fought against enough Egyptian stacks to really believe the slingers do better against chariots, but I admit there seems to be no statistical proof. Maybe it is the additional defense which kicks in when the chariots try to ride them down and the chariots get bogged down in melee.

**Phase** · 03-11-2005, 22:25

Could it be, that because sling stones fly straight instead of in an arc, they do better against fast moving approaching enemies? (= Chariots)

**Red Harvest** · 03-11-2005, 22:51

The slinger trajectory is relatively flat (although the archery trajectory is surprising flat as well, the slinger trajectory is flatter.) Their range is so short that they have trouble engaging with projectiles. I could see the slingers bogging down the chariots in melle, there would be some benefit to that I suppose. On the other hand, Balearics and Rhodians can cause some pain for the chariot riders.

**player1** · 03-12-2005, 00:22

It's interesting that Numidians get a few Slingers at start, but no "lower tech" Archers.

Weird...

**Darius** · 03-12-2005, 21:24

While the archer's arrows will only inflict damage upon the area that they land upon, a slinger's stones will inflict damage upon any area between the target area and the origin of the shot. So therefore while an arrow that has overshot its target will do nothing, the stone will simply smack into anything along the way, which is far more useful since it is very difficult to accurately hit moving targets. The other advantage slinger's have is that they have a much larger amount of ammuntion to expend when compared to archers. Of course the flat projectile will mean that archer's will have an advantage when it comes to siege assaults since they will be able to fire over the walls at the enemy. Next is the fact that archer's can use flaming arrows, which is somewhat overrated, but is still useful in it's use against siege weapons. Lastly is the fact that with archer's you can position them behind your front line infantry, allowing them to fire from relative safety. Slinger's on the other hand are required to have a direct line of sight with the enemy, and therefore have to be either set up in the front or along your extreme flanks in order to be effective, but also essentialy rendering them rather exposed.