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Thread: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

  1. #31
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: **Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics**

    Quote Originally Posted by kekvitirae
    He's showing us general strategies on how to fight and win, taken from Real Life® tactics that are tried and true. Ignore them at your own risk.
    seems a bit like a challenge to me, i'll think i'll also start a guide with phalax/legionary defence tactics

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  2. #32
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellesthyan
    Am I wrong in supposing that hoplite warfare was quite different from sarissa warfare? I thought that hoplites did not use their spears to push, but rather to stab overhand in the weak neck area of their opponent. Naturally the formations would be a lot closer to eachother, each trying with their large shields to push the other away. The Macedonian pikemen used such a large pike, that the "hoplons", the shields used earlier, were unpractical, and they switched over to a very small shield, using their weapons with two hands. The shift around as you've shown seems to me a little ridiculous as sarissa armed troops wouldn't have that problem. It is possible though that hoplites would move in such a way, but probably they'd be positioned very close, if not shield to shield!
    the shield of the phalangites weren't very small just smaller than the big argive shields. and strapped over their left shoulder

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  3. #33

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    I have a question about the echelon attack. Would you have other units to the right of the echelon unit? The illustration makes it look like they would exploit a seam, but then be vulnerable to a flank attack on their own right as they penetrated the line. I assume you keep your units in phalanx throughout this procedure?

    Have you ever tried exploiting the gap created through echelons with heavy infantry like falxmen?

    Thanks for the guide, it's very interesting so far!
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  4. #34

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    I havent tried going for the center of the line with the slant yet. It seems easier to try for the wing. That's what Alexander did in one battle against the Persians. His rightmost 2 phalanxes had pushed two mercenary hoplites back. Alexander charged his heavy cavalry through the gap in wedge formation and went straight for Darius. One of the right phalaxes disengaged when it's enemy was basically done for and attacked one of the other hoplites in the rear.

    It would be pretty risky to attack the center, flanking and all. The kill rates/routing for phalanxes seems slow against other phalanxes. You'd need other phalanx units to the side or some more protection on the wing to screen the attack.

    Is anybody reminded of the Battle of Trafalgar with this bold attempt to attack the center with a line of troops?

  5. #35

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    [QUOTE=Ellesthyan I thought that hoplites did not use their spears to push, but rather to stab overhand in the weak neck area of their opponent. Naturally the formations would be a lot closer to eachother, each trying with their large shields to push the other away. /QUOTE]

    It's up to debate, but I read that the Spartans favored thrusting underhand whereas the other Greeks favored charging with the shield while holding the thrusting spear overhand. I love those pictures of one phalanxes spears going through the other's helmets. Ouch! And I don't know if they switched to underhand thrusts rather than overhand stabs after initial contact.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    UPDATED 13 APRIL 2005

    -Included screenshots of phalanx tactics.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  7. #37
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Post Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Nice pics!

    The echelon gap exploit must take some good timing. I'm not really disciplined enough to play phalanx factions, but it looks like I'll have to give them a try with this.
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  8. #38

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    An alternative way of doing the echelon on one of those tabletop figure battle sites is putting the phalanx in a stairstep pattern like this:

    P
    P
    P
    P
    P
    P
    P

    When just tipping a straight formation on an angle and approaching the enemy diagonally, the AI often moves and lines itself back up with you, negating the effectiveness. So, just use the stairstep and move forward might be easier. This will force the opposing phalanx to take its units out of line to engage yours. As this happens gradually engage the rest your line, turning your slant formation back slowly into a straight formation. And during al this time have cav and missles and flankers do their magic as well.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Whoops. Well I hope you can imagine what my faulty diagram was supposed to look like.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Celt
    I have a question about the echelon attack. Would you have other units to the right of the echelon unit? The illustration makes it look like they would exploit a seam, but then be vulnerable to a flank attack on their own right as they penetrated the line. I assume you keep your units in phalanx throughout this procedure?

    Have you ever tried exploiting the gap created through echelons with heavy infantry like falxmen?

    Thanks for the guide, it's very interesting so far!
    As you can see by the screenshot, the units on the right are the most vulnerable. You can double the stack of supporting units on the right to counter this. Generally, you want your elite troops with the highest morale for this section of your battle line. They must be able to hold the line long enough to get your horse through the gap. NEVER put your general in this spot. I have really bad luck doing that.

    You absolutely should keep your units in phalanx. The supporting unit on the right and to the rear is NOT in phalanx until he shifts right to draw open the seam. He should run to the right and then quickly take up the phalanx in the direction indiciated. He is kind of like bait. This is why the genral should not be used, as the bait will be way too tempting and too many enemy units will be drawn there, which clutters your open seam.

    This formation is not restricted to phalanx, and my guide will go into this more later on. I do not recommend infantry to exploit the seam; it is really only best for calvary because they can charge through the gap so well. They get through very quickly and create that "dillema" I was talking about. Remember, this is the textbook version. A good general will manipulate it as he or she finds effective to accomplish the mission.

    Thank you for the comments.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    this is the problem i see


    echelon works great if going like this:


    | \ (| is enemy \ is you)


    but what happens if the enemy has any sense at all and just moves to support the attack like this:



    \ \


    you're assuming the opponent will stay in a static line and not move to meet his opponent properly.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by runes
    you're assuming the opponent will stay in a static line and not move to meet his opponent properly.
    Read the guide. Pictures are pretty, but they only serve to illustrate the point of the writing.



    Thank you for your comment.

    DA
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    The echelon, illustrated in Figure 4, allowed for an aggressor to secure a distinct advantage. The echelon exploits the weakness of a “static defense”.
    Like I said. Read the guide.


    Thanks again runes.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    interesting as it displays a certain amount of historical accuracy, but apparently has no application to the game.

    neat.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    As the guide states, these are textbook applications. They are modified slightly by the player using them as he or she sees necessary. Just as "Vanilla RTW" provides a base for modding, so to do these tactics provide a base for alteration.

    I will modify my guide to make this clearer.

    Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Welcome to the community.

    DA
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  16. #46
    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Wonderful guide. I recommend reading 'the generalship of alexander the great' by J F C Fuller and 'Fighting Techniques of the ancient world' by Simon Anglim, Rob S. Rice, Phyllis G. Jestice, Phyllis Jestice. They make great reading, and yeap, Divinus, I've used your tactics based on my reading of those books when I started playing Macedon, with phalanx pikemen as my backbone :-D Works like a charm. May I come up with a solution to the weakness of the right wing--some light mercenaries will do the trick very well, I recommend, specifically, Illyrians. They can hold their own for just the amount of time you need to develop the battle. This comes from Alexander's conduct of operations at Gaugamela/Arbela.

    At that battle, Alexander was outnumbered 1:5, if the histories are correct. He formed his main phalanx in line, his companion cavalry just behind the right end of the main phalanx, and the main phalanx was joined either end with peltasts and agrianian archers, as well as all his remaining cavalry, stretching in an arc facing approximately the flanks. Like so.

    /------------------\
    | C | c= companion cavalry, \|/ = light troops + cavalry
    \ -----------------/

    He left a small portion of his phalanx stretched out in a second line rather to the rear, facing outwards, such that his 'line' was really more of a 'box'. He opened the battle by advancing the leading edge of the echeloned phalanx towards the centre (yeap, the Persian line was so long that his right was their centre), and seeing that coming at them, the Persians tried to outflank Alexander's pathetically short line with their massively superior (in numbers but not quality) cavalry, opening a small gap in their line which happened to be just in front of Alexander, so he charged his cavalry through the light troops that were engaging the cavalry with missiles and agility into that gap, turning around to strike Darius' chariots (Darius had been in the centre, like any AI general worth his salt) and routing him, sending the rest of the army packing.

    My point? Your echelon can be much improved if you take along some light troops with you. They can guard your flanks, provide extra firepower, and even play melee or flankers of their own. They are especially essential when you are badly outnumbered. You need to keep the enemy off your back awhile.

    Okay, that was a long ramble. Hope I didn't waste your time reading it... I'm looking forward to seeing your addition on legionary and barbarian tactics! (or maybe I should create one for the Germans, the faction I'm best at :-P)


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  17. #47
    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Augh, let me try that diagram again.

    /-----------------------------\
    | = |
    \ ------------------------ /

    Where = stands for the Companions, the slashes stand for light troops and cavalry, and the hyphens for the phalanx.


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  18. #48
    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    That SO did not turn out well. I give up.


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  19. #49

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    pezhetairoi,

    Thank you for the comments. If the battle you describe between Darius and Alexander is the one I am thinking of, then it should be represented in the Echelon with Gap Exploitation (EGE) as I described in the guide. As you described,

    Quote Originally Posted by pezhetairoi
    He formed his main phalanx in line, his companion cavalry just behind the right end of the main phalanx...He opened the battle by advancing the leading edge of the echeloned phalanx towards the centre ...opening a small gap in their line which happened to be just in front of Alexander, so he charged his cavalry through the light troops...turning around to strike Darius' chariots (Darius had been in the centre, like any AI general worth his salt) and routing him, sending the rest of the army packing.
    Although I paraphrased your comments, the EGE is the 'essence' of what Alexander accomplished that day, and is in fact based upon that same battle. Very good comments.

    BTW, I suggest you try uploading pictures to clarify your points. I used to try and do the same thing you are doing, but it is hopeless because of the autoformat on this text. In the entrance hall, check out this thread:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=45193
    and this thread:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=45748

    The light troops are useful, but I prefer heavy infantry. I need someone that can take a good beating from two sides if it gets messy. I see your point though, and it is a good idea. The formations shown are basic tactics that should be used as a foundation for advanced tactics such as what you are speaking of. Archers set to 'flaming arrows' firing on the gap just before, during, and after the gap exploitation can facilitate the transition to a route much faster. Great points. I will incorporate these suggestions when I follow up the basic tactics with variations.

    Warmest Regards,

    Divinus Arma
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  20. #50

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    BTW, I'll check into those books. I recommend "The virtues of war" (a novel of alexander the great), the "Emperor" series (such as 'Emperor: The Field of Swords'), "The Pelopenessian War" (sic), and "The making of the Roman Army: From Republic to Empire".

    All of which are great books and provide varying points of view on different types of tactics, some being historical fiction and others being straight-up history.

    Regards
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  21. #51
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    abotu the 'stair' is doesn't really work for me. they dont push trough or angel in anyway. the only thing that happens is áll your untis gettin gmicro-infatry-flanked because teh ai just charges to get its bonus..

    abotu the cav in divinus's echelon. what is the point. you open up hole in teh line to rush the towards the general?
    whatever the point, wedge is pretty broken in rtw. just click and attack doesn't work and clicking behind it negates teh charge bonus..

  22. #52

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    I think I understand what your describing and if the unit next to the one defending the left flank decides to flank the atttacking unit, move the next unit to the left and hold him up and take the heat off and so on down the line. Time it right and he'll be stuck at an angle while trying to flank.

    It also helps to use high quality or upgraded units for the right so they kill quickly and step around to flank.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Attacking the gen is only one option. You can also slam into the back of another phalanx unit for a rout.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Exactly.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  25. #55
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    It takes a lot of micromanagement of your phalanxes, but there is another way one could use phalanxes. However, it is recommended to, preferably, stick to the hammer and anvil tactic against other phalanx-based armies; it is what the Successors did, after all.

    It is the simple principle of a supported cavalry charge: find a gap or weak spot to exploit, send your cavalry in while sending your infantry to follow them up very closely, and watch as the pressured enemy unit is broken immediately when the shock of a cavalry charge is followed up by momentum from a phalanx. Philip and Alexander seem to have used it against enemies not of Greek warfare (Gaugamela is a wonderful example).

    Now, how to do it in-game. Note that this is a phalanx-based army.



    1. Form your units into an echelon, choosing the weakest of the enemy's flanks to center your attention on. This works well on armies containing many different types of troops, as is usual in the campaign. In this case you would choose the flank with the weakest troops in the army, such as eastern infantry, hastati, or just plain an enemy unit with quite a few less chevrons.

    2. Start to position your cavalry for a good attack. If the enemy sports cavalry, annihalate them with a concentrated effort. Remember, you are using the echelon -- all your cavalry should be on one side.
    In terms of position, it is most favorable to make sure that the different units of cavalry attack the enemy from different directions. This does not mean that they should try and charge them in the flanks and frontally at the same time, but for more effect and confusion, cavalry charging in from slightly different directions will help. It's not 100% necessary -- you usually don't have the time for such micromanagement.

    3. All the while, you should have kept your phalanx units nearby the enemy and poised to strike. Keep them out of the phalanx formation. You'll need the speed they gain from being out of it.

    4. Once you are in position, charge your cavalry into the enemy unit which holds the outer flank of the enemy's formation. Watch your cavalry: in an attack as this, cavalry should absolutely not be bogged down, so repeatedly withdraw them and charge them back in again.

    5. Now comes the tricky part: when your cavalry charge in, you should immediately order your phalanxes to charge in as well. What happens next, is imperative for victory. Once your hoplites come in spear-range of the enemy, order them to take on the phalanx formation. This is the only way you will be able to simulate the real thing, and it will of course allow the hoplites to fight on their full potential.

    6. The combined pressure of your cavalry charge (shock effect) and the phalanxes (momentum plus attacking a temporarily disorganized enemy) will break the enemy unit.

    7. Your cavalry, after the units on the outer flank have been routed, can come to the help of those phalanx units engaged with enemy units closer to the center. From the destruction of the outer flank on, the tactic switches over to hammer-and-anvil.

    8. The role of the outer flank is the same as with the normal echelon: to protect the flanks of the attacking units. One could also opt to carry out a refused flank* to stop the enemy from outflanking or destroying your own formation.



    This tactic takes a whole lot of micromanaging and is risky. As a result, a lot can go different from what you want. As Divinus Arma stated before, a good tactician is defined not by his tactical ingenuity, but by his ability to react to the changing fortunes of a battle.

    I'd like to remark as well that this is at best a tactic for variation, used often in reality (a supported cavalry charge is one of the simplest tactics; however, simplicity is usually effectivity). The nature of RTW's tactical system, with its phalanx formation on/off button, makes it harder than it really is supposed to be.

    Also, I realize I do not follow Divinus Arma's rule of being able to perfectly carry this tactic out without having to pause -- this needs a lot of coordination. If you are not quick enough in micromanaging your phalanxes, your cavalry will get bogged down and be massacred, while your outer units will be in great danger of being outflanked or overpowered. But if the different units used in this tactic are properly micromanaged, one can gain victory quite handily.

    Lastly, I'd like to stress again the fact that this tactic is best not used versus other phalanx-based armies. The whole stereotype of phalanx warfare equals hammer-and-anvil stems from the Age of the Diadochi, when sarissa-armed phalanxes often faced off against each other, with a general lack of heavy cavalry such as hetairoi. Tactics became pretty static again, and the replacement of the heavy cavalry, the elephants, were best used in hammer-and-anvil. In this way the Successors lost Philip and Alexander's aggressive style of command in favor of battles so similar to those of the Peloponessian War.

    * A refused flank is bending off the outer units of your echelon (those not supposed to engage the enemy offensively) downwards, if one views the move from above:
    +++++++++++
    +++++++++++
    +++---------+
    +++------\+++
    ++++++++\++
    + = empty space
    - = enemy line and your own attacking line
    \ = refused flank

    P.S. I might add some screenshots to add to clarity later on.

    P.P.S. This is a very good thread, chapeau to the author!



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  26. #56
    Member Member Leftenant Moley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Hey Nice work!!

    Can you post replays as well, or are they too big?
    There's no such thing as a lootenant.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Leftenant Moley
    Hey Nice work!!

    Can you post replays as well, or are they too big?
    Thank you.

    I am not sure. I have never tried. I assume that a link could be posted to an outside site, but I have never seen a replay on this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  28. #58
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Cool phalanxe tatics. Should have more threads for different things cav e.c.t


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  29. #59
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    quesion: the 2 units forming the main attack (left/front) are the ones penatrating the line. wil they than stand back to back and 'open a hole' for ,perhaps, charging cav towards gen? or will they both start fighting to the left/right?

  30. #60

    Default Re: Divinus Arma's Illustrated Guide to Basic Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by jerby
    quesion: the 2 units forming the main attack (left/front) are the ones penatrating the line. wil they than stand back to back and 'open a hole' for ,perhaps, charging cav towards gen? or will they both start fighting to the left/right?
    What are you referring to, the echelon? Look at the pictures and read the text that applies to them. It should be explained...

    Please clarify so I can update the guide to make the intent clearer.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

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