Superman Hulk Wall Defenders

[myz]

on vh/vh, i have found wall battles to be almost impossible. For example, in early game as scipii, a libyan spearmen unit (single unit by themselves) in carthage, withstood being attacked from front and rear by 3 hastatis with two chevrons, as well as under arrow fire from roman archers on another section of the walls, also, with my general right under the walls blowing his battle horn, and the libyans proceeded to rout all three hastatis, and is cutting down the archers right now.

Then, during battle of sparta, a single armored hoplite routed three principes.

Then during battle of corinth, a phalanx pikemen stood for the entire battle timer, when 3 principes could not break through.

I thought those spearmen are bad on the walls, when they have to fight with swords and out of phalanx, what the heck?

So the main problem is not just getting wall attackers routed, it is also that wall fighting most often leave me with no time to do the actual assault on the city, so i always run out of time. I attacked corinth three times, to no avail.

Please let me know whats going on, as i think this is just a problem with vh vh, cuz on m/m, and h/h, my wall attackers seem to have little problems with ANY defenders.

[Viking]

Thats exactly why i always play on vh/h.
Your own men rout only they smell an enemy, while the enemy soldiers stands and fight to the very last man.
A bit unrealistic if you ask me!
So my advise would be to not use any harder settings than hard when choosing battle difficulty before starting an campaign.

[Sas_Legion]

Hi myz ,
firstly , I don't like sieges .. it is sucks this heppen to me too when playing on VH/VH . The AI gets unfair bonus . I think it's +7 as I remember . Try to shoot them with Roman Achers or drow them from the walls . I found heading to the plaza and cupturing it will pull them from the walls . After that prepare to hastati or princepies with fire at will on beside the entrance that the defenders will come out from it if they are a phalanx unit don't let them reform .
god luck

[tibilicus]

i experienced something like this to do with a greek armoured hoplite on a wall. It was on a custom battle hard mode i had 2 units of legionary cohort on the wall and l surounded a unit of armoured hoplites. Yet they still absolutley kiked my but !!!!!!!!!!!! it really did entaganise me.............grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[myz]

So um, now that the problem is recognized and it's legitimacy confirmed, any reasons as to why or how to take care of the problem? I mean putting battles on very hard is absolute necessity, otherwise in field battles, AI stands no chance. But the purpose of vh difficulty setting is to showcase the importance of human player field battle maneuvers to counter the bonuses AI gets, but how is this maneuvering possible on the walls? when the AI gets insane bonuses by just sitting there? Once the numidians sent some peltasts up and slaughtered my Triarii defenders, I am not kidding, Triarii get cut down by peltasts, what the heck???

[drone]

If the walls you are attacking are large/epic, build siege towers. As soon as the combat begins, set the units pushing them to fire-at-will (toggle off then on if the pushing unit is a missile troop). Push the engine towards the wall and watch the built-in repeating ballista clear the walls for you. Once out of ammo, push the tower to the wall and finish the attack. Beware of archers with flaming arrows though.

Be careful about the morale state of wall-defending troops. Once they get to "fighting to the death", it's going to be tough, since they will not rout.

Or use lots of onagers, and remove the walls (hopefully with the defenders on them).

[myz]

But we are talking about early game stage, when money is tight, and onagers not available. It is best to conserve strength at this point, instead of losing units and units of hastati and principes to random units of AI (supposed to be inferior) defenders. I mean when my general is right under the wall, doesn't he add some bonuses to my guys as well? shouldn't this counter the AI's bonuses? So maybe in early siege battles, it is best to sap instead of using siege towers. Just build 3 or 4 saps and rush everyone in. But then AI in the streets is sort of like AI on the walls, just as tough to crack. Sometimes in the streets, eastern infantry held against principes and gladiators with archer support.

[drone]

You are playing with the battle-timer, so that is going to limit your tactics somewhat. If you want to keep your army more or less intact, I would suggest starving them out and beating them when they sally. Takes the fun out of it, and takes longer to expand, but it will save men.

[Old Celt]

I starve out large garrisons like that. Why let any of my valuable troops be killed when a little patience will force them to sally? If I do need to assault for some reason, I use saps and build enough to choose a good spot. Then you rush to the plaza and defend the avenues of approach. Like you say, money is tight in the early game, and I can ill afford to replace big losses, just for the sake of taking a town quicker.

[myz]

keeping an army in siege for many turns at a time should be avoided, imo. That army that is just sitting there is not really contributing to your faction, except for eating away at your finances, they should be put to use constantly for eating my treasury. Every leader hates to feed those who just sit around. Getting back to sap issue, can you actually select where you want to sap? or is the sap point chosen randomly by computer when assault starts. I have never used the sap myself, having just used siege towers mostly. How exactly do you sap?

[katank]

Far better to assault ASAP and at most wait a turn to get enough siege towers and saps. The opportunity cost of the idle army is too great. Besides, the extra money you get from the city in all those turns will often more than replace your troops.

You are also taking away your enemy's income which makes the reward doubly sweet.

Sap points are automatically generated by the computer at start of battle. Building 3 or 4 saps is the best way to guarantee at least one will be in a decent position. Only really good for cav heavy armies.

BTW, only siege towers and saps are good for stone walls or above. Queue some ladders with spare build points but they aren't as useful except for quick boarding a section. Rams are useless and a death trap for your troops.

[Quietus]

myz,

My advice is one sap point and 2-3 siege towers/ladders. Also, the first and foremost goal of attacking is capturing the arrow towers where your troops are entering. That is the primary objective.

Thus, capture the towers around the sap point firsts then start sapping. Or you can time it so that when your men reaches the sap point, the towers are already captured. You don't have to confront those soldiers on the walls out and out.

If possible, put archers and/or skirmishers on top as well so that when your main army enters, you have someone harrassing the defenders (apart from the arrow towers you have already captured).

Once you control the entrance and the arrow towers, the enemy is practically toast.

Couple more things: be careful of enemy archers on the walls (make sure you either take them out with melee units or move your troops out of range; this could mean sacrificing a unit or two on the walls so the enemy will fight them and at the same time use the archers on those instead of your troops on the ground marching close by). And, when the sap point is close to the gate, lure the enemy near the sap point to melee. When the walls go down, so do they.

[vastator]

Myz, you have my deepest sympathy. Playing on H/M I had a unit of armoured hoplites hemmed in on the walls of Sparta by two units of experienced Samnite mercs, with a unit of Rhodian slingers firing at them from INSIDE the walls. I'd upgraded the Samnites' attack and morale but the hoplites, fighting back to back, wiped out both units and recaptured the gatehouse. Greek casualties were minimal, and I had to throw another three units at them to protect my general who had occupied the city plaza. I dread to think what would have happened if I'd had to face Spartans!

[pezhetairoi]

Hoowee, I don't want to think about it. I'm a little wussy (I prefer to call it realistically/historically inclined :-D) so I do M/M and it's just fine as it is. VH/VH is just asking for trouble.

[MajorFreak]

If you're really pinched for time and tech level, and without fancy units, i'd seriously suggest finding a tower with a door that's unguarded and has access to an inroad. Throw your troops to the wall (close enough to avoid the arrow towers) and rush them over and down the tower and into the center. The key here is capturing the plaza which enables you to rout their troops and being between the plaza and the routers.

not only does the AI split it's forces, it usually has a poor plaza force in reserve which is easily dealt with by your basic spearman.

*shrug* have your general sip tea with some kind of light support troop that can ladder rush the gates once everyone is dealing with the plaza blitz.

• the incredibly neat thing about urban warfare is the ability to force the enemy into positions where you can actually use missile units against troops engaged in hth and minimize friendly fire - without having to outflank them - just have a pointy-stick troop in an alcove and the enemy will invariably turn to engage it even when they see the massed missile units in front of them.

Remember, the point i'm making is you don't HAVE to take the plaza and hold it for 3 minutes. all you need to do is avoid wall combat and arrow towers by getting to the plaza and then ATTACKING the "surrounding" enemy and defeating them in detail outside the plaza.

And, believe me, fighting an enemy IN the plaza is much preferable to watching them slaughter you on the walls.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Either use saps or onagers instead, or use MORE siege towers. Also make sure to capture the towers in the wall so that you don't stand and fight next to an enemy-owned tower which will give you many casualties AND be extremely demoralizing. Another feature that you HAVE to use if you want to be a more effective assaulter is the fire from siege towers. Halt the siege tower when it's within range and let it fire at those bastards on the wall. In one of my julii assaults on a seleucid 20 unit garrison with large walls I saw one of those towers destroy an entire unit of phalanx pikemen - very convenient for my praetorians who could safely exit the tower and get onto the walls (but I took some casualties because of the siege tower bug which makes men on large walls fall on each other and that way kill each other when they exit the towers).

[MajorFreak]

how did you get the men to the top? do they all climb once you hit stop? i don't get it.

[mfberg]

On the small stone walls I send fast troops with ladders first, walk them up the wall and then run them around the walls to an undefended gate (capturing every tower on the way. I send up a second unit to block the gatehouse defenders from moving to the other gate, positioning them just outside a tower door so the enemy can only send one through at a time.

mfberg

[Kekvit Irae]

If wall defenders are a problem, try this solution:

Bring up an artillery piece (IE: onager) and smash the the wall. When the wall gets damaged to a certain point, the wall defenders will realize that it's not a good idea to stay up there, and will retreat down to the street. Stop your artillery from firing and bring up a siege tower or ladders

But then again, I always use sap points to break down the wall and bust in

[pezhetairoi]

Yanno, I've never sapped a wall before. I built 4 sap points against Rome's walls the sole time I tried it, only to realise that Germans couldn't sap. Bah.

[katank]

Germans can definitely sap. I did it before. I would recomend siege towers though. Those chosen axesmen can really do a number on the enemies on the walls.

[Kekvit Irae]

Yanno, I've never sapped a wall before. I built 4 sap points against Rome's walls the sole time I tried it, only to realise that Germans couldn't sap. Bah.

Were you using Spear Warbands? Phalanx units cant sap unless they are out of phalanx positions

[MajorFreak]

But then again, I always use sap points to break down the wall and bust in

i'd just tried sapping last night. it was a blast! no bloody climbing and stuff. just go straight for the wall with your expendibles (so you get defilade), on either side of the growing tunnel, wait for the annoying cinematic, and then rush through and to the nearest tower door. i didn't even care where the sap point was! What a blast!!

• just grab the towers giving enfilade on your path to the nearest inroad and forget the wall from then on

[Kekvit Irae]

i'd just tried sapping last night. it was a blast! no bloody climbing and stuff. just go straight for the wall with your expendibles (so you get defilade), on either side of the growing tunnel, wait for the annoying cinematic, and then rush through and to the nearest tower door. i didn't even care where the sap point was! What a blast!!

• just grab the towers giving enfilade on your path to the nearest inroad and forget the wall from then on

I use nothing but sap points. The best thing is that the enemy can not touch you as you are destroying their walls. The only downside? It takes awhile for it to work, but it's always successful (unless some archer unit gets lucky with sallying out and using flaming arrows against your sap point), and does not put your men in harms way

[RollingWave]

thoerically ladders will get ur men on the wall much sooner, so if u just want to climb a unmaned section then definately use ladders instead of towers. espically true in lvl 1 stone wall since the seige tower's pee shooter isn't all that impressive.

And yes, vh battle setting is quiet ridiculas, i've once almost lost a battle where my fresh gallic infantries lead by my at least 6 or 7 star general charged down hill against a relatively equal number of tired early roman infantries led by a 2-3 star general... and they nearly all routed after routing half the Roman infantries... luckily i had dogs and my flank calvary was about 6 times the number as their equities.... and they swoop in from teh sides just as my infantry gave way.

[Conqueror]

Sapping can be very dangerous if the defenders are egyptians and have pharaoh's bowmen on the walls. I've had legionary cohorts severely decimated when they had to run to (and away from) the sapping point in a storm of arrows.

[MajorFreak]

ouch. yeah, hey, btw. what is that "trick" to using missile firing siege towers?

[Rodion Romanovich]

how did you get the men to the top? do they all climb once you hit stop? i don't get it.

You mean for firing from the tower? No, it's not your unit that fires, it's the tower itself, just like the stationary defending towers. All you need is to have the siege tower within range of an enemy unit on the walls.

Another tip I forgot: using onagers to kill one or two defending towers before moving in the siege towers is often effective. On the other hand, you don't want to destroy towers you will capture with your men soon anyway. It's a delicate balance between limiting own casualties in the first phase and keeping enemy casualties in the second phase up.

[Conqueror]

Don't mind about destroying towers that are in 90 degree corners of the walls. Those ones can only fire at targets that are outside the city, so capturing them wouldn't be much of an advantage to you anyway. Best to find such a corner tower, take it out with onagers and then park your siege tower next to it.