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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    President Bush is right about evolution and design.

    By Peter Wood

    Opposable thumbs: mighty useful. In fact, we anthropologists put the lowly opposable thumb near the top of physical characteristics that make humans human. Without fully opposable thumbs, we would wrench-less in a world without plumbers, soccer would be the only sport, and the Moonlight Sonata would have to be whistled. The manual dexterity that, when you think about it, makes civilization possible, owes quite a bit to our thumbs.




    Well, of course, not just our thumbs. As handy as thumbs are, they are part of an engineered package of exquisitely fine-tuned brain-eye-hand coordination. We can, as a birthright, do myriad things with our hands that are beyond the reach of even the most ingenious chimpanzee. And a good case can be made that the rapidly expanding brain of human ancestors over the last million or so years came about as part of a feedback loop with manual dexterity. As our ancestors learned to make and rely on tools, the edge in the race for survival went to those who were better at it.

    At an interview with some reporters from Texas on August 1, President Bush parried a question about whether schools should teach "intelligent design" as an alternative to evolution by saying, "I think part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought." By itself, this seems a mild, even innocuous opinion. But that hardly tempered the reaction in the press. The New York Times picked up the story two days later, and we were off to another liberal media cage fight between Outraged Scientists and Unrelenting Creationists.

    The Case for Modesty and Restraint
    This battle is unnecessary and intellectually irresponsible. To a large degree it is staged by secular Left in effort to maintain its monopolistic control of education and its predominant influence in the sciences. But, in fact, evolution and intelligent design can coexist without the universe cracking asunder. All we need here is a little theoretical modesty and restraint.

    A good place to start is to distinguish between the theory of evolution (without the capital E) and Evolution as a grand and, apart from a few rough edges, supposedly comprehensive account of speciation and genetic change. Small-e evolution is an intellectually robust theory that gives coherent order to a huge range of disparate facts. In contrast, capital E Evolution, is a bit illusory. Like a lot of scientific theories, on close inspection it is really a stitched-together fabric of hypotheses. Some of them are central and well-attested, while others are little more than guesswork. Some phenomena such as natural selection and genetic drift are on solid ground; but others like late Stephen Jay Gould's theory of "punctuated equilibrium," in which evolution proceeds in widely spaced bursts, are pretty speculative. Evolution (with the capital E) is today far from being a single comprehensive concept. Gould's last work, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, was an attempt to repair that situation with a brand-new synthesis. The jury is still out on whether he succeeded.

    While I am a proponent of small-e evolution, I recognize that it doesn't provide satisfactory answers to some key questions. We don't have compelling answers to how life began on earth, whether the self-organizing stuff that we recognize as life depends on earth-like chemistry, or whether nature's profligate complexity is inevitable. Earth was home only to complacent bacterial mats from about 3.5 to 2.5 billion years ago. That's a run almost as long as Madonna's career, but it did eventually give way to more complex organisms that could thrive in the presence of oxygen.

    We also don't have any really convincing explanation of why nature split so many organisms into two sexes.

    And above all, evolutionary theory hits a wall in trying to explain what happened with the emergence of fully modern humans about 150,000 years ago. We have a tissue of tiny clues, some of the most intriguing of which come from genetics. The picture accepted by most (by no means all) anthropologists is that a tiny population of modern humans — no more than a few hundred — emerged in east Africa and eventually dispersed over the entire world.

    What set these people off from our older ancestors, however, is crucial. It wasn't their thumbs, which, like most of their anatomy, were essentially the same as their immediate predecessors. Give or take some fine points of the cranium, we were human before we were human. But the version of humanity that appeared abruptly on the scene about 150,000 years ago had some strange new quality.

    It may have been a mutation that gave rise to fully articulate language; or it could have been a leap in capacity for symbolic or abstract thought. These are the likeliest scientific guesses. The material facts are that the newly emerged form of human being was a prolific inventor. The stone tools made by his predecessors remained unchanged generation to generation for hundreds of thousands of years. An 800,000 year-old hand-ax looks identical to a 200,000 year-old hand-ax: and everyone used exactly the same tools. Intellectual property rights were not at issue. Then suddenly these new humans began to invent new tools and new ways of making tools at an unprecedented pace; different groups of them made different tools; and, before too much longer, began to trade group from group.

    The Birth of Culture
    We can give a name to what happened: with the biological emergence of modern humans came both the capacity for and the realization of "culture." Maybe geneticists will, at some point, isolate a gene or genes that make complex, symbol-based culture possible. Indeed, we already see some hints of this in the gene FOXP2, which affects our capacity to learn language and which mutated to its current form about 200,000 years ago.

    But to speak of the beginning of culture and the emergence of our species by way of some genetic mutations from anatomically similar ancestors does little to explain the profound mystery of the event. Of course, if we are convinced in advance that genetic mutation is a random, material event, the results of which are sorted out by the struggle for survival, the immense mystery dissolves into happenstance blips in strands of East African DNA, c. 150,000-200,000 years ago.

    But at that point, we have moved beyond scientific evolution to doctrinaire Evolution. The randomness of the mutation cannot be demonstrated or proved; it is simply an article of belief, no different in character from a belief that an intelligent Creator nudged the adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine bases of that DNA strand into the right order. Or that he took the clay of archaic homo sapiens and molded Adam in His own image.

    At bottom the dispute between Evolutionists and Creationists always comes down to the question, "What is random?" This is the cage that Cardinal Christoph Schonborn rattled in his op-ed in the New York Times, July 7, where he wrote, "Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense — an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection — is not." Now the director of the Vatican Observatory, Father George Coyne, has published a rebuttal in British Catholic weekly, The Tablet, neatly asserting the opposite, and accusing the cardinal of having "darkened the waters" between the Church and science.

    Whether the universe is truly random or whether apparent randomness is order-not-yet-apprehended seems pretty clearly a philosophical or theological debate. It will not be settled by the editors of the Boston Globe ("Unintelligent," editorial August 4), the vaporings of Rev. Barry Lynn from Americans United for Separation of Church and State, or the numerous respectable scientists who have stepped forward to say, "Sure enough, the universe is random." How exactly would they know? It is not hard to suspect that beneath this ardent insistence on an unproven proposition lies simple irritation at having to share public space, including schools, with people who inexplicably continue to think that they live in a universe governed by an active God.

    Middle Ground
    Under the circumstances, I think the sensible middle ground lies just about where President Bush pointed. If students study biology in school, they need know a good bit about evolution with a small e. Beyond that, it wouldn't hurt them to know about Evolution, Creation (or "Intelligent Design") as well. I don't carry a brief for Michael Behe, the intelligent-design proponent at Lehigh University, or the movement that he has started. But I also don't think science is well served by elevating to the status of unquestionable truth the image of a material universe governed solely by random and otherwise inexplicable events. That's a worldview, not a scientific conclusion, and it has no better claim to our intellectual assent than views that postulate an underlying purpose, meaning, or destination for humanity.

    Actually, a line of argument that depends on seeing events as random is in a rather worse position than one that postulates, even if it can't prove, underlying order. In science, what's random today is frequently modeled tomorrow. To base a theory of life on ever-more-emphatic repetition of the idea that, "No, it's random," is a bit like stamping your foot and saying, "It's so because I say it's so."

    Ironically, the Creationists have come out of this recent round of controversy sounding far more open-minded than some of the scientists and the hard-core secularist advocates of Evolution-and-Nothing-But. If we had the equivalent of a Scopes trial today, I would wager Rev. Barry Lind would get to play the part of William Jennings Bryan, unwilling to think about what he is unwilling to think about.

    Meanwhile, across the waters at Seoul National University, Hwang Woo-suk and his colleagues have created Snuppy, a cloned Afghan hound. Experts say the first cloning of a dog clears some technical hurdles for cloning the first human. If and when that occurs, I wonder whether cloned humans will be disposed to see themselves as products of natural selection or of intelligent design? Probably that's a false set of alternatives. Evolution and intelligent design will have both played a role.

    — Peter Wood, provost of the King’s College in New York City, is author of Diversity: The Invention of A Concept.
    I see no conflict between evolution and inteligent design.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Oh my god (no pun intended), not again. Get off it. There's no scientific basis for creationism, and it should be left in churches where inquiring people can go learn about it along with the rest of that OPTIONAL religious mumbo jumbo.
    Did you even read the article. Again to secularists science is their religion. There is no PROOF to back Evolution only evolution.
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    Bored Avid Gamer Member Alrowan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Oh my god (no pun intended), not again. Get off it. There's no scientific basis for creationism, and it should be left in churches where inquiring people can go learn about it along with the rest of that OPTIONAL religious mumbo jumbo.

    Teaching our kids crap like Creationism will only add to the quagmire that is our educational system.

    and yet there is no real proof on evolution, just a bunch of theories and hypothoses. better to teach them the two camps, than just one that is as bad as the other when it comes to trying to prove anything in aristoltilian logic
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Gah!
    Why should school teach in creationism and intelligent design in Biology, which is where evolution is taught? It's just silly.

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    Bored Avid Gamer Member Alrowan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    There is more than enough proof backing Evolution. There's more proof for Evolution than there is for Black Holes. Yet we accept Black Holes as fact, do we not? There is more proof for evolution than there is for the theory of "Anti-Matter" yet that is also accepted fact.

    Evolution is fact. The Religious Right has been trying to discredit it for decades, in the same despicable fashion that the church tried to discred Galileio. Evolution exists as surely as the earth is round. The church is regularly proven wrong, and this is no exception.

    It's such a god-awful simple concept. Natural Selection. The basis for natural selection is everywhere! The same way a small business evolves into a wall-mart is the same way a species can evolve. Natural Selection is not just a basic law of evolution, but of everything. It is applied to every single aspect of your daily life.
    then i will naturally select that people who believe in what isnt proven and then discredit those who do just that are fools

    i happen to know several biologists who all beleive evolution is just a theory and there isnt enough proof to credit it.

    ah well, seems like the org is getting fuller and fuller of ignorant lefties
    Last edited by Alrowan; 08-10-2005 at 01:33.
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    "I think part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought."

    I would say "valid schools of thought". There are lots of schools of thought out there that are complete baloney.

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    Member Member Petrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrowan
    and yet there is no real proof on evolution, just a bunch of theories and hypothoses. better to teach them the two camps, than just one that is as bad as the other when it comes to trying to prove anything in aristoltilian logic
    There is not just two camps, but a dozen of them, at least.

    The theory of evolution is just a theory as you say, but creationism is considered by religious people as a fact, a truth that can not be discuted.

    So you can understand the evolution theory, you can criticise it, you can correct it but you can only believe in creationism as it is only based upon faith.

    To speak about the different camps concerned, you can notice that creationism is believed only by some persons following a religion linked to the bible and even in this case only some of them believe in creationism.

    But the different religions issued from this book represent only a small part of all religious people among men.

    So how can you afford not to speak about the induists beliefs concerning the origins of universe?

    And what about the other religions followed by billions of men?

    If you want to learn children a dogma that is presented by one religion, how can you afford not to present them all dogmas presented by all religions?

    And after that how can you hope to make children believe in different stories, without criticising them because they are supposed facts and that are in no way compatible with each other?

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    The theory of evolution is just a theory as you say, but creationism is considered by religious people as a fact, a truth that can not be discuted.
    I beg to differ. Just listen to many people here . They believe evolution is a fact not a theory. They belive it just as much as religous people believe in creationism. The difference is that many religous people admit that evolution is part of intelligent design while secularists say evolution alone is responsible. It is they who are closed minded.

    f you want to learn children a dogma that is presented by one religion, how can you afford not to present them all dogmas presented by all religions?
    Almost all these religions say the same thing. That god created man.

    And after that how can you hope to make children believe in different stories, without criticising them because they are supposed facts and that are in no way compatible with each other?
    But they are entirely compatible.
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    Member Member Skomatth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I beg to differ. Just listen to many people here . They believe evolution is a fact not a theory. They belive it just as much as religous people believe in creationism. The difference is that many religous people admit that evolution is part of intelligent design while secularists say evolution alone is responsible. It is they who are closed minded.
    Part of the major problems surrounding the ID arguments is the confusion of disciplines. Scientists, when they try to use science to make philosophical claims (atheistic ones usually), anger the religious. ID proponents make similar errors when they use science to try to prove their theistic views. ID is just a fancy cosmological argument and should be left in its proper place: philosophy where it destroyed by Kant. Do you contend that ID is a scientific theory?
    Last edited by Skomatth; 08-09-2005 at 18:40.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Do you contend that ID is a scientific theory?
    Not in the least its a religious theory. Does that make it any less acceptable than a scientific theory? A theory I might add that to me and many if not most other people makes more sense than Evolution.
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    agitated Member master of the puppets's Avatar
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    i agree, evolution is fact while religion is a mere hollow story to aquiest the devotion of the foolish peoples. your "Gods" may be real but only in youir mind, and one day he to will fizzle out as all his believers bite the dust, this is fact. mabey that god is real to them, just as zeus was real, and baal, and epona and all the other gods who now are mere powerless names.

    Almost all these religions say the same thing. That god created man.
    bah man created god to fill in the holes in his own history but now as we find the true plugs to those holes the people who have growqn wealthy or reliant on these old plugs are not relenting in there belief.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    i agree, evolution is fact while religion is a mere hollow story to aquiest the devotion of the foolish peoples. your "Gods" may be real but only in youir mind, and one day he to will fizzle out as all his believers bite the dust, this is fact. mabey that god is real to them, just as zeus was real, and baal, and epona and all the other gods who now are mere powerless names.
    Thanks for proving my point.
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    agitated Member master of the puppets's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Thumbs Up

    your welcome, now lets have a 10,300 party w00t
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    Member Member Skomatth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Does that make it any less acceptable than a scientific theory?
    To a rationalist who prefers not to believe anything without evidence, science is superior to religion as a means for acquiring knowledge.
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    Evolution is not supernatural, and therefore belief in it can not be compared to religious belief.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    To a rationalist who prefers not to believe anything without evidence, science is superior to religion as a means for acquiring knowledge.
    Again your proving my point. You believe that science is a better relgion. Theres a big difference between evidence and proof.

    Evolution is not supernatural, and therefore belief in it can not be compared to religious belief.
    The theory of Evolution is just that a theory. Its a belief system just like religion .
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    But it is a scientific theory, that has proof, and is accepted to be correct until a more accurate model is found. A scientific theory is more than just a belief, at least I'm nearly 100 percent sure.
    In my school at least, the teacher said quite clearly it was a theory.

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    agitated Member master of the puppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Its a belief system just like religion .
    but its a system which has sustained itself through the assaults of every conjecture and come out more flawless than before. we can come up with a thousand possibilities of how we arrived through science but with religion they are unwilling to allow there ideals to be moved in any way lest it break off into an entirly new religios party. religeon could easily be warped and people would still follow it. science you need something plausible.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    But it is a scientific theory, that has proof, and is accepted to be correct until a more accurate model is found
    The same can be said of religion. Infact it was siad in this very thread but used to discredit it.

    A scientific theory is more than just a belief, at least I'm nearly 100 percent sure.
    Its not a fact therefore it is a belief.

    but its a system which has sustained itself through the assaults of every conjecture and come out more flawless than before
    Has it? Then why are we arguing?
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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    The theory of Evolution is just that a theory. Its a belief system just like religion .
    Quote Originally Posted by master of the puppets
    but its a system which has sustained itself through the assaults of every conjecture and come out more flawless than before. we can come up with a thousand possibilities of how we arrived through science but with religion they are unwilling to allow there ideals to be moved in any way lest it break off into an entirly new religios party. religeon could easily be warped and people would still follow it. science you need something plausible.
    Gawain is talking about the theory of evolution vs the theory of creationism.

    Your talking about science vs religion.

    Not the same thing.
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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Again your proving my point. You believe that science is a better relgion. Theres a big difference between evidence and proof.
    -----
    The theory of Evolution is just that a theory. Its a belief system just like religion .
    there is a diference between evidence and proof yes....

    as for the diference between Evolution and creationism....evolution has one of those things(evidence) going for it....creationism has none of them...

    so i fail to see how evolution is like a religion, there is a diference between evidence(despite not being absolute) and nothing at all.
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    Bored Avid Gamer Member Alrowan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    To deny scientific theory is to deny everything you know about what you consider as fact. Without scientific theory, you know nothing. Scientific Theory is the method of coming to a factual conclusion. It's not bias, like Religion. It's a method of aquiring knowledge.

    Evolution is not some kind of grand anti-religion scheme. It's a scientific theory. It's purpose is learning in a logical way where we came from.
    no, to deny A scientific theory isnt much at all

    to deny ARISTOTILIAN LOGIC is to deny a way of thinking
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    Member Member KafirChobee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Not long ago, I watched a program entitled "I was a teenage Darwinist" on EWTN (you know the Catholic Church tv network). It is a one man show (and by typing the title in a search engine you can find all sorts of supporting stuff for the teaching if Inventive Design - ID). The speaker (entertainer), Atty. Woody Cozad, starts off explaining how his parents forced him to believe in evolution. But that once he realized how Copernicus, Gallileo, and others were so wrong and the church so right about their "theories" and the real biblical scientific evidence - he realized that Darwin must have be wrong too. And on and on he goes with misleading "evidence", conjecture and the premise that ancient philosophers have been proven wrong (well, updated maybe, but not exactly wrong). He ignores any and everthing that might get in his way of telling the truth, and instead uses a demented reasoning skill (that only an attorney has) to promote his one sided affair with ID.

    Intelligent Design, has nothing to do with intelligence. It is about the "Churches'" idea that Genisis is an accurate depiction of how we were created. It is, insain.

    I someone asking a minister (in my bible school class) about the 7 days vs evolution. I always liked his response. He said (more or less) that the bible is an explanation by ancient man to explain things as they understood them and used allegories to poeticly explain them. That, a day to God might be a million, even a billion years, as time means nothing to a supremebeing. That it was not man's place to judge or take things literal in the bible, but to simply embrace it as guide line for how we live our lives - not as a scientific study of our creation.

    For me, it is that simple. Taking things literal from the BOOK is a stretch of faith that may never have been intended - but, is now a popular means to demonstrate (for some) how absolute their faith is.

    To do so, we must accept that The Sun was stopped in the sky for a battle to be won. That a man could live inside a whale (versus living within himself blindly). That a man could go without water or food for 40 days and nights (versus going with out the food of god - the man's belief - for that time).

    Attempting to substitute ID with evolution is absurd, to teach it in our schools is a breach of church and state (it is taught in Sunday schools - leave it there), and to suppose that making it a "big E - little e "issue somehow justifies it absurd.

    BTW, you can catch "I was a teenage Darwinist" again on EWTN, Sept. 3rd at 11:30 PM.

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Evolution and intelligent design are compatible, as long as you don't take the Bible too literally. In the Bible, God created the world in 7 days. The number 7 has a whole lot of religious symbolism, and the Bible was written (and edited) by humans, not God. So let's stretch these 7 days out into 30 million years (or whatever the current estimate of Earth's age is).

    Now during these "7 days", evolution occurs, and the animals, birds, trees, lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats etc. come into being, with humans showing up eventually. Who is to say that this process is not all part of God's will? Maybe God likes to tweak things, tries beta releases, and mixes things up to see what works best.

    Scientists can be godless heathens, but maybe they are just uncovering God's design. The religious leaders get offended by this, because every discovery made by the godless heathen scientists reduces their power (which is the point of all organized religion, don't let anyone tell you otherwise). Maybe the scientists are just filling in and correcting the Bible's holes.

    My biggest problem with ID, is that it seems like a very human-centric approach. It just reeks of the whole "Earth is the center of the universe" crap. Evolution at least looks into the developement of other species, and doesn't make the case that everything leads to the creation of homo sapiens.

    Edit-> basically what KafirChobee said
    Last edited by drone; 08-09-2005 at 19:29.
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  25. #25
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    I m not touching this topic even with a ten meter stick...


    ...this is internal consumption 'ID' nonsence is good for your average republican but its all just propaganda that tries to become mainstream.

    ...To say that you cannot prove Evolution is like saying you cannot prove the earth is a sphere...and actually you cannot...someone who has been conditioned as a child to think that such a though is pure sin will reject all sorts of evidence and keep living in his own flat ( literally ) world.
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  26. #26
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Intelligent Design, has nothing to do with intelligence. It is about the "Churches'" idea that Genisis is an accurate depiction of how we were created. It is, insain.

    No its not.

    Attempting to substitute ID with evolution is absurd,
    No one is saying that. Most christains today believe in both. They are not contrary to eachother.

    and to suppose that making it a "big E - little e "issue somehow justifies it absurd.
    Theres a huge difference between evolution and Evolution.
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  27. #27
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Drone, I think it's about 4.5 billion years (the age of the earth).

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  28. #28

    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I see no conflict between evolution and inteligent design.

    unfortunately the conflict is there and it is very explicit even if not everyone sees it

    evolution is just speculation with zero hard facts to back it up, therefore evolution should be banned from all schools

  29. #29
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    evolution is just speculation with zero hard facts to back it up, therefore evolution should be banned from all schools
    On Evvolution I agree with you but not on evolution. There are plenty of hard facts to support it.
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Thumbs Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    To deny scientific theory is to deny everything you know about what you consider as fact. Without scientific theory, you know nothing. Scientific Theory is the method of coming to a factual conclusion. It's not bias, like Religion. It's a method of aquiring knowledge.

    if the quoted statement here is true, then it is especially ironic since evolution does not meet the standards of the scientific method and therefore can never even qualify as a scientific theory

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