The U.S and the wrold

[Ser Clegane]

I have to say that I am actually rather dissappointed about how this thread and the "50" thread developed.

People in Louisiana and Mississippi are still struggling for their life and the situation currently seems to be far from being under control

The first priority should be to save the lives and ease the pain of the affected.
I am sure that the US wil be able to take care about most of the situation without outside help (in terms of logistics as well as in terms).

That does not mean that we (meaning other countries) should not be willing and ready to offer our help and to quickly provide it if the necessity arises.

This can be in the form of equipment and professionals from government and non-government organizations and in the form of donations from each person individually (I did not forget the willingness of US people to offer help and support during the flood in Germany and the heat-wave that hit France 2 years ago, IIRC)

When the situation is under control, it would be time to discuss if there is a way to avoid such disasters and/or if there is any sense in finger-pointing.

EDIT: I see that bmolsson shares my thoughts regarding this

[Sjakihata]

I think that the Katrina tornado is really sad and I am already talking to help agencies active to give my contribution. Discussing who's fault it is, just make my stomache sick. Its a natural disaster and we need to help the victims. Period.

I agree with everything, except the fact that Katrina isnt a tornado, but a hurricane.

[Meneldil]

Wow, while PJ and KoA are willing to blame 'Europe/Chirac/Schroeder/France/Germany/Islam/Palestinians/whatever' as soon as something bad happens on this earth, they can't stand that some people blame US for screwing up our environment ?

[Advo-san]

I agree the Kyoto treaty should not be signed until we understand things better.

Also the role of trees as carbon sinks is debatable...

I hope our respected mod is kidding...

[PanzerJaeger]

Wow, while PJ and KoA are willing to blame 'Europe/Chirac/Schroeder/France/Germany/Islam/Palestinians/whatever' as soon as something bad happens on this earth, they can't stand that some people blame US for screwing up our environment ?

Now thats not true at all.

[Redleg]

I think that the Katrina tornado is really sad and I am already talking to help agencies active to give my contribution. Discussing who's fault it is, just make my stomache sick. Its a natural disaster and we need to help the victims. Period.

Agreed - payday is this Friday - what is left over from paying my expenses will be going to the Red Cross.

[Leet Eriksson]

red cross (not crecent) organisation is taking donations here, i might as well spare whatever i can.

My condolences to all the families in the troubled areas.

[drone]

CNN has a page with links and phone numbers to various local and federal relief organizations.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/30/kat....us/index.html

I see good in USA (even the fact that you call yourselves americans and your country America gets on my nervs) and i'm sure if i visited it i'll see a lot more.

Not trying to rile you up or anything. The name of my country is the United States of America, not just "America". If somebody doesn't want to type all that out, they should just say USA. But what should the citizens of my country be called (and "imperialist pigs" is not acceptable )? I understand your point, since technically/literally you are an "American" as well. Suggestions are welcome.

Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...s_for_American

And for grins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensi...tes_of_America

[Red Harvest]

Yes, all our problems are George Bush's fault.

No, more the fault of his misguided followers who voted for him. I pointed out the mess he created with his snubbing of Kyoto. Cry foul if you like, but I did my part to get it right, and still am.

Ignoring the fact that it really isnt the place of the president to sign a treaty that wasnt ratified by congress, American jobs and the economy are more important than a treaty of which the results are questionable at best. Just because something feels good - or makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside - doesnt mean we should jump on board without taking broader perspectives into consideration.

Also, it has never been the American way to simply go along with the crowd. It is of great importance that we consider the effects of every treaty on ourselves and act on that consideration. Just because everyone else is doing it - whatever the current "it" happens to be - doesnt mean it is the right thing to do.

It is the president's job to try to lead the country down the CORRECT path, instead of off into the ditch. The anti-Kyoto crowd is typical of his short sighted support. What he and you are doing is DAMAGING to our economy and jobs. Short term thinking usually is, and you guys represent that in all its glory. I don't even believe Kyoto would have even weakened us short term and certainly not long term. It would sure as heck be a lot cheaper than many things we are doing to support our guzzle-it-up approach. I do believe oil would be cheaper today for one, and tomorrow, and next week, and next year, and 10 years from now.

Why should the rest of the world be mad? It effects all of them when Dubya and his supporters decide to think selfish short term. It is rather hypocritical to be calling for international efforts in one area and ignoring them in another.

[Redleg]

No, more the fault of his misguided followers who voted for him. I pointed out the mess he created with his snubbing of Kyoto. Cry foul if you like, but I did my part to get it right, and still am.

Crying foul by pointing out President Bush errors about not signing the Kyoto treaty is ignoring about 100 years of past adminstrations not worrying about the environment at all.

It is the president's job to try to lead the country down the CORRECT path, instead of off into the ditch. The anti-Kyoto crowd is typical of his short sighted support. What he and you are doing is DAMAGING to our economy and jobs.

Well show me where the Kyoto Treaty is the correct path - which I don't believe it is when it completely disregards half of the world, it ignores the slash and burn deforestation of the Rain Forests, and many other issues that are not fixing the environment. What the Kyoto does is attempt to halt the already developed countries increase in emmissions - but does nothing to give get developing countries into developing sound environment policies either. The United States can do more to control or emmissions but signing the Kyoto Treaty is just giving a pass to countries that also need to control their emmissions and stop the massive deforestation of the Rain Forests.

Short term thinking usually is, and you guys represent that in all its glory. I don't even believe Kyoto would have even weakened us short term and certainly not long term. It would sure as heck be a lot cheaper than many things we are doing to support our guzzle-it-up approach. I do believe oil would be cheaper today for one, and tomorrow, and next week, and next year, and 10 years from now.

Yes indeed and that is all the Kyoto Treaty is a short term approach on the problem, not a long term fix.

Why should the rest of the world be mad? It effects all of them when Dubya and his supporters decide to think selfish short term. It is rather hypocritical to be calling for international efforts in one area and ignoring them in another.

Yes it is - especially given the way many European Countries also show their hypocrisy on the issue.

[Goofball]

Do we or do we not give the most aid of any country in the world? It seems like you are saying 1 billion swedish(or whomever) dollars are somehow better than 10 billion american dollars because of GDP comparisons.

You're missing the point Panzer. I haven't checked the numbers, but I'll take your word for it that the U.S. gives the most in absolute terms.

But here is a little analogy for you:

Let's say my house burns down so my neighbors all take up a collection to build me a new one. One of my neighbors is a really rich guy, earning $1,000,000 per year, but the other nine people on my block are average joes earning $50,000 per year. The rich guy gives me $25,000 towards a new home, and the other nine neighbors each give me $5,000.

The $25,000 the rich guy gave me is definitely the most important donation out of the ten.

However, I would be much more appreciative of the $5,000 given by the others as that required more sacrifice of them.

Having said all of that, it would also be extremely bad manners (if not downright hurtful) for me to point this out to the rich guy.

[Adrian II]

The $25,000 the rich guy gave me is definitely the most important donation out of the ten.

However, I would be much more appreciative of the $5,000 given by the others as that required more sacrifice of them.

Having said all of that, it would also be extremely bad manners (if not downright hurtful) for me to point this out to the rich guy.

Now add this: the rich guy demands that you spend those $25.000 uniquely on products of his company.

And add this: he demands that you use all the money given (that from the others as well) to hire hands from his company to do things that you could do all by yourself, with your own hands, and for free!

Would you still be grateful?

[L'Impresario]

This isn't though the whole picture and surely the USA aren't the only ones to blame. The above analogy holds some truth for most western nations (with some bright exceptions I might add).

As I 've written in an older thread regarding aid being wasted - allow me to repeat myself:

Well if you wish to know why such amounts of money aren't used efficiently(and the majority isn't for free, they are just nice loans with usually only a 25-30% donation part, they include managment costs, aid to immigrants during their first year away from home as well as scholarships to students who study in the donating country, many of them not going to ever return to their land) then the main problems are these:
1. corruption.
2. countries not in need of aid do claim portions of it that's much needed elsewhere (the USA offers a considerable amount of aid to Israel, Russia and Egypt, while the EU offers more money to Poland than to Asia and Southern America combined).
3. aid that boosts exports and some of the donating countries' companies (with studies showing that blocking competition leads in a 25% extra-cost , with cases like in Mozambique where drugs were bought 50% higher than in market prices).
4. a large aid portion ,designated as technical aid (25% in 1999) is dependant on an incredibly large number of advisors from the donating coutnries. The costs and salaries of these people consume about 70% of the "technical aid" budget.
5. lack of coordination. Duplication of the same researches and projects is experienced many times, with money and time being thrown out of the window, granted tho that coordination between so many different "players" is difficult.

And this is only one side of the issue. Nevertheless, millions of people have benefited from ODA, but a lot potiental has been wasted as well.

[Proletariat]

Would you still be grateful?

They're more than welcome to turn down this burdensome aid we dole out. More than welcome.

[Azi Tohak]

Wow, while PJ and KoA are willing to blame 'Europe/Chirac/Schroeder/France/Germany/Islam/Palestinians/whatever' as soon as something bad happens on this earth, they can't stand that some people blame US for screwing up our environment ?

Bad USA! Bad! Don't have the most manufacturing capacity of anyone on the planet! Bad! Don't make cars, computers, steel, food, (or maybe of more relevance to Europe) tanks, and airplanes, and weapons! You might hurt the environment!

You blame the US for screwing up the whole world's environment? You're kidding right?

Hey Prole, I say we use the money from our burdensome aid to do things here... like maybe get a net set up to transport those incapable of moving themselves, the next time a sledgehammer hits. How does that sound?

Azi

[Papewaio]

I hope our respected mod is kidding...

Tongue in cheek at the same time I think we should be doing more research into the causes and effects.

As for Carbon Sinks:

I am referring to a few studies that show that trees will only absorb their standard load of carbon. Increased carbon in the atmosphere will not lead to individual trees absorbing more carbon. So forests will not automatically suck up the extra carbon. More vegetation is required... or microbes.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE!

I'll skip point 2.

But about point 1 - look, I don't want to sound insensitive, but some countries can take care of themselves, others can't.
Germany doesn't need foreign aid when they have a flood, Paris doesn't need aid when an overcrowded building burns down, America doesn't need aid after Katrina.

Apart from very specific technical assistance (like Swiss Alpine dogs to search for survivors after 9-11) what do our societies really need?

In the unlikely event that there's anything America needs that it can not provide for itself, I'm sure you only need to ask.

I will stress my sympathy and condolances.

[Redleg]

Tongue in cheek at the same time I think we should be doing more research into the causes and effects.

As for Carbon Sinks:

I am referring to a few studies that show that trees will only absorb their standard load of carbon. Increased carbon in the atmosphere will not lead to individual trees absorbing more carbon. So forests will not automatically suck up the extra carbon. More vegetation is required... or microbes.

In other words slash and burn cuts of the Rain Forest is a bad thing since it takes away more vegetation that is needed to resupply us with Oxygen and to scrub the existing CO2 out of the atmosphere.

[Red Harvest]

As for Carbon Sinks:

I am referring to a few studies that show that trees will only absorb their standard load of carbon. Increased carbon in the atmosphere will not lead to individual trees absorbing more carbon. So forests will not automatically suck up the extra carbon. More vegetation is required... or microbes.

I'm surprised they had to study the tree aspect much. Tree size is determined mostly on species and soil/temp/precipitation and such from what I've seen. CO2 would be a rather small factor for a tree, like O2 content in the air for a human. Would breathing higher oxygen atmosphere throughout a lifetime make humans much bigger? I doubt it. More food (equivalent of better soil and precip) would...as too many of us can personally attest.

Funny aside: I remember a brilliant engineer coworker of mine astounding me in a conversation over rain forest conservation. He was truly brilliant technically, but lacked common sense in every day matters. He was trying to convince me that the fields that would replace a rain forest would probably be a better carbon sink. He really believed that, not sure where he got that piece of wisdom from. He wasn't exactly an outdoorsly type.

[Papewaio]

If you harvested the fields for hay and then used the stalks in concrete... it might be a more effective carbon sink.

[Soulforged]

Now add this: the rich guy demands that you spend those $25.000 uniquely on products of his company.

And add this: he demands that you use all the money given (that from the others as well) to hire hands from his company to do things that you could do all by yourself, with your own hands, and for free!

Would you still be grateful?

Well that's as normal as human compassion. And it's called greed. I'll not blame anybody for this, but you can't just bother others for the rest of their lives only because you helped them, you had the option of not helping them if you wanted.

[PanzerJaeger]

Having said all of that, it would also be extremely bad manners (if not downright hurtful) for me to point this out to the rich guy.

Thats my point Goofball. People are so ungrateful, but their hands are just as wide open.

[Proletariat]

Blog listing donations by domestic corporation. Nice one, Chevron.

http://blog.simmins.org/katrina/ameraidamer.html

And then some signs of sympathy from the International Community.

One official said that Israel's offer of assistance was of a general nature, and that the Americans have not asked for any help. The official said that although Israel does not have any particular expertise in battling floods, it does have a great deal of expertise dealing with collapsed buildings.

Thanks, Jews.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1125454956818

“On behalf of all Canadians, I wish to extend our heartfelt condolences to those who have lost loved ones as a result of Hurricane Katrina, as well as our sympathies to those who have suffered great losses and personal hardship,” said Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan. “During this difficult time, we are offering our support to our friends and neighbours.”

Thanks, America Jr.

http://www.psepc-sppcc.gc.ca/publica...20050830_e.asp

On Monday, Minister of Petroleum and Mineral Resources Ali Al-Naimi stated that Saudi Arabia stands ready to immediately increase its crude oil
production to 11 million barrels per day, and sustain that level to replace
any market shortages resulting from the effects of Hurricane Katrina in order
to stabilize world crude prices.

Erm, thanks Saudis.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4097778&EDATE=

Everyone else, thanks for nothing. Whether we're a well off country is besides the point. It's something countries with respect for humanity do. You don't have to fund the whole effort, it's the sentiment that matters. Send us a bag of Cheetos and a bag of popsicle sticks. Who cares? At least show you give a damn.

Seems like alot of people are watching Americans (or Red Staters) floating down rivers when they are actually humans. Human victims of a horrific tragedy.

(Btw, f the Federal Gov't. Where the hell is the Army air-drops with food for these people? Why do we have that thing that says 'Fed Tax' on our paychecks again?)

[sharrukin]

Thanks, America Jr.

Well we are sending the Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue and the Canadian Red Cross is collecting donations as well as private citizens helping. It may not be much but at least we are trying!

[Proletariat]

I was honestly saying thanks, the America Jr thing was just a stupid joke.

Very classy move by our northern friends.

[sharrukin]

I was honestly saying thanks, the America Jr thing was just a stupid joke.

Very classy move by our northern friends.

Oh, sorry!

[Soulforged]

Everyone else, thanks for nothing. Whether we're a well off country is besides the point. It's something countries with respect for humanity do. You don't have to fund the whole effort, it's the sentiment that matters. Send us a bag of Cheetos and a bag of popsicle sticks. Who cares? At least show you give a damn.

Well it seems to be a joke, but i'll asnwer you anyway. Does a country wich makes wars cares about humanity? Does one who enpoverish others cares? Please don't give that argument. Why don't you come here and check if we can help your country when there're people here dying beneath mountains of trash.

Seems like alot of people are watching Americans (or Red Staters) floating down rivers when they are actually humans. Human victims of a horrific tragedy.

Well i'm not in that group.

Though it seems that for some people the world does turns arround USA.

[Papewaio]

PRIME Minister John Howard has sent a personal message of sympathy to US President George W. Bush in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

I'm sure there are many more countries offering their sympathy.

[Productivity]

I'm sure there are many more countries offering their sympathy.

Was about to post that myself - Really Proletariat, you should know that if you are going to make such an inflamatory statement such as "everyone else, thanks for nothing" to put a caveat on it that if you miss anyone you don't mean to offend them. Unqualified blanket statemetns are an easy way to lose friends.

[Ser Clegane]

Everyone else, thanks for nothing.

As I said before - ask, and you will receive:
Germany embassy

Or did you expect the people to just fly over without an official mandate?

Quite frankly, your attitude is not much more helpful than the attitude of those who just point at the US and say "you had it coming - now take care of yourselves"