3rd of October closing in - Hotline for Turkey

[LeftEyeNine]

Taffy and Redleg,

Thank you for your point-accurate ability of comprehension.

Continuing the Q&A workout of Redleg a bit more on :

Any ways to limit army while dodging the fanatical Islamic threat ?

One would better "dry off the swamp" instead of "dealing with the mosquitos one by one". Turkey is not a self-fanaticising country about Islamic matters. Fanaticism is the "export" of neighbour regimes of ones such as Iran, Iraq and Syria.

We may call "gendarmes" to make up things there a bit then, huh ?

No. The next time another operation by "gendarmes" is held in another country, it will be quite dubious decision to reject the concrete support to them - they will demand it for sure -, such as opening the bases to their military or direct troop support. It will absolutely be some sort of chaos after rejecting USA & allies for the second time. We have the power to resist but the tendancy will grow stronger to a point where the relationship of Turkey and the "demanders" may break. Accepting leads to being a desperate "Hit me, AQ!" challenge. And they already did though we rejected such a support once.

So ?

Is there a way to democratize or smoothen the regimes of the named countries without attracting some reactive stiffness as it is right now in Iraq, then is there a way Turkey can loosen the military belt a bit.

But that's not all. There is still a serious Kurd chaos ahead. Believe it or not, this conflict will grow more serious soon.

[LeftEyeNine]

@Byzantine Prince

I am aware that they are semites, but none of the look like it. A lot of Israelis are blonde and red headed, and also most of them look pure white. That indicates a mostly european background. Think about it, they arived in France in the medival times . They mixed in a millions times since then...

So why are they still chasing the Semitic purposes ? 'Cause they are still Semitic, doesn't matter how mixed up they are.. Phenotype and genotype concepts should be distinguished. How far may they look European (phenotype) they have Semitic genes since ever (genotype)..

[Redleg]

While I'm not doubting any of your examples Red sometimes I do wonder if everything reported as racial incidents are, in fact, racial.

Most are probably on the line between just flat out hate of your fellow human being - and actual racism. Since most of the reports are from the UK - others would be a better judge if its racism or not. However as an outsider looking at the reports - there is a hint of racism in the attacks.

I'll give you an example if someone calls me a Scottish whatever is that a racial attack or just plain simple common or garden abuse, if you say it is racial then what if they left off the Scottish part? Would it then just be abuse? For those who say that is a racial attack I would ask why? My main concern would be the "whatever" they called me not the fact that they tagged on Scottish, Jock, Sweaty (Sweaty sock = Jock) or even black, Jew, Chinky etc.

Well you sort of answered your own question - the use of the racial term would actually qualify it as racism - or at least that is my understanding of racism from several courses both in the military and in civilian life.

maybe defining racism would be helpful. Edit: One source defines racism as

definition of racism is any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see calling a black man black, or a Scottish man Scottish, as insulting, but then if I'm going to insult someone it'll be because they've done somehting to me not just because they're different.

Well if you follow it up with an attack of either verbal abuse or physical violence - its gets real close to what I have seen defined as racism. Calling someone by their racial makeup is not necessarily racism - however if it is the factor that is determining your decision making process then it is indeed racism.

Again a prime examble of racism - which is harmless - but is indeed racism.

Why should Turks, an asiatic people's, join the EU, a european organization. I can understand Israel going into the EU, because they are mostly white from mixing with europeans, but turks are heavily mixed anatolians and steppe people. Neither of which have ever been considered european

Notice the racism in the statement - advocating denying entry of Turkey because the population is mixed and the country is technically not in Europe - but allowing Israel because people from Europe immigrated to that country and that country is also not in Europe.

How is it racism, calling them what they are? The turksih guy posted right underneath me and agreed with me. We are not as PC in that area of the world as you are. We call things what they are.

So if your not PC in that part of the world - call your statement for what it is - racism.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

LEN:

no comprehending of this thread on my part to be honest.

I did a quick glance and said I agreed with you at the start.
I then did a quick glance later and was pedantic about some historical stuff.
I then felt that I should supply a reason why I don't like the thought of EU + Turkey.

I didn't actually read anything except for the first line or so of anyposts after the fun old Istanbul/Constantinople thing.

Didn't Monty Python do a song about that?

bah.

[yesdachi]

LEN:
Didn't Monty Python do a song about that?

"they might be giants" did a great song about it.

This is the first thing that has been in this thread that I know about with any certainty. Everything else I have chosen to keep my big American nose out of.

[drone]

And as another American who should be keeping his nose out of this, isn't the only reason Israel competes in European sports the fact that Asia won't have them? Looking through the Asian Football Confederation list on the FIFA website, I see plenty of countries where staging an Israeli away game would be fatal...

[Sjakihata]

Damn, since Turkey stole our place for the World Championship in Football - I'll give them pay back - kiss the dreams of coming to the EU goodbye *laughs menacingly*

[LeftEyeNine]

Oh, the song by They Might Be Giants - Istanbul (Not Constantinople)! The Four Lads performance released in 1953 is a lot more pretty, I think. One of the prettiest songs I have heard all time. I like it very very much. The music itself, nothing much about the theme.

" Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it, I can't say
(People just liked it better that way)

Take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks "

Damn carefree lyrics, aren't they ? Aah, bring me the oldies..

@ Taffy,

If ability of comprehension was all about reading, the librarians would conquer the world. Now that's a general claim..

[LeftEyeNine]

@Sjakihata,

Neither side deserved the match in Istanbul, don't you think ? Draw was the best result. And yes..

WE 'RE COMIN' TO GERMANY ! OPEN THE GATES !

P.S. You still have the chance and will beat Greece won't you ?

[Sjakihata]

@Sjakihata,

Neither side deserved the match in Istanbul, don't you think ? Draw was the best result. And yes..

WE 'RE COMIN' TO GERMANY ! OPEN THE GATES !

P.S. You still have the chance and will beat Greece won't you ?

No, since Turkey won over Ukraine, our only hope is that freakin' Albania will play equal or win over you (not gonna happen) and we still have to win every match. Btw, we beat Georgia 6-1

[LeftEyeNine]

Yes, I'm already aware about the mathematical situation for qualification. Above all, you have to beat Greece.. Please..

[Sjakihata]

Yes, I'm already aware about the mathematical situation for qualification. Above all, you have to beat Greece.. Please..

Because they are the only threat to you, but remain confident, we will win that one. They are a defensive team against our strong offensive one, and we know how to tackle (literally and metaphorically) such a team.

[A.Saturnus]

How is it racism, calling them what they are? The turksih guy posted right underneath me and agreed with me. We are not as PC in that area of the world as you are. We call things what they are.

Calling them as they are is not racist. Saying that they can´t join because of their race - well, it would take a greater rhetorical genius than you to show that that isn´t racist.

[A.Saturnus]

What makes the islamist ideology unable to reach power and to impose a religious based society in Turkey?

The army.

That´s not necessarily a problem. You might note that in some EU member countries, it is possible to disallow certain political parties. In Germany for example. It is not possible in Germany for a political party to advocate communism or a fascist state. The same could be applied in Turkey. Political projects to undermine the secular nature of the state can be outlawed. And to achieve this the army may be used.

[LeftEyeNine]

RP and MSP were Islamic political parties which several times had the govermental power in political timeline of Turkey - under the leadership of the notorious politician Necmettin Erbakan.

They were all closed, Necmettin Erbakan was prohibited from his political rights. His comrade Recai Kutan opened the latest one - FP. The leader is still Necmettin Erbakan behind the curtains. Tayyip Erdogan was a member of RP once, he was a "pupil" of Erbakan.

You let them open, you can not prevent it since the party statute is literally democratic. But their actions blow their cover someday and the party is closed. The remnants open another one as soon as possible. This goes and on and on and on. It is also valid for the Kurdish parties who always were banned after their support to PKK being exposed.

I mean, they do not alreadily expose their ideal in their party statues, how can you ban ? Crime needs proof, nothing possible before as you know. Therefore as soon as they "exagerrate" their allowances as a party, they are closed.

Saturnus, sorry but your statement is far from being possible here.

[Byzantine Prince]

Calling them as they are is not racist. Saying that they can´t join because of their race - well, it would take a greater rhetorical genius than you to show that that isn´t racist.

I'm glad you admit that you are persuadable by rhetoric.
It makes my act of dismissing anything you say very easy.

It's called a European Union for a reason. Only European nation-states may enter, not one's that have invaded European soil.

[AntiochusIII]

Erm...just to make a point here. It seems some of our Turkish patrons may be offended by misinterpreting my earlier post in this thread. By no means I suggest that Istanbul is not a correct/proper name for the city. I am just suggesting that in a literary sense, Constantinople, though on the same location as Istanbul (okay, one was built on another's ruins) it is a different city.

Indeed, if I ever have the luck to visit the city I'd be glad to see beautiful Istanbul...

Though I am not well-versed in the affairs of Europe and cannot make a comment on whether or not Turkey should join the EU.

[LeftEyeNine]

It's called a European Union for a reason. Only European nation-states may enter, not one's that have invaded European soil.

So NAFTA is nonsense from the start, huh ? You know native Americans have no power on it, the founders are the invaders..

[LeftEyeNine]

AntiochusIII,

No problem.. I, very well, understand Greek patrons calling it Constantinopolis; because they have the history all of it. I am not offended anyway a Greek calling Constantinopolis instead of Istanbul. However, it's sometimes all about using the old name to reflect your fanaticism inside. Then this is annoying.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Constantinople was not destroyed after its conquest, was it? It just grew in another culture. I do not know if it was ruined but Fatih had his warriors stopped looting in a day, whereas it used to last 3 days in other conquests..

[AntiochusIII]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Constantinople was not destroyed after its conquest, was it? It just grew in another culture. I do not know if it was ruined but Fatih had his warriors stopped looting in a day, whereas it used to last 3 days in other conquests..

I know, considering ancient standards the looting of Constantinople was mild, unsurprisingly, though. The Ottoman's ambition is to be an empire replacing the Eastern Romans, and not to lay waste to Europe (and create an empire, too) as Attila. Nonetheless, the city has changed so dramatically culturally that it becomes something different entirely. The strongest symbolization of this is the ancient Hagia Sophia in modern times (what do you call it in Turkey, by the way?) which, continuing to retain its old beauty while includes the change by the new rulers.

[Redleg]

So NAFTA is nonsense from the start, huh ? You know native Americans have no power on it, the founders are the invaders..

Now that is a great come back to Byzantine Prince's comment. Game set match to LeftEyeNine

[LeftEyeNine]

AntiochusIII

So we may call it "reformation of Constantinople" instead of "destruction". Well, such a change was unavoidable. Because, you know, Ottomans were representatives of Islamic culture. If they were Hungarians, Franks or another Christian nation conquering it, the change would not be such a significant distinction between the old and the new Constantinople.

Hagia Sofia is preserved at its best condition - converted a mosque and we call it Ayasofya Mosque. It is still the top historical symbol of Istanbul, above Suleymaniye Mosque or Palace Of Topkapi.

[Byzantine Prince]

So NAFTA is nonsense from the start, huh ? You know native Americans have no power on it, the founders are the invaders..

They are no longer invaders because they formed their own states after the colonization. Also your point is completely invalid because the Indians who live in the US are US citizens, and they get the same rights as everyone else, which is not what the greeks in Turkey recieved at all. Your country is still one of the most openly racist countries there are.

[LeftEyeNine]

It is the custom pronounciation that fits our laryngeal. As it was debated in "Fall Of Constantinople" thread, the word that meant "To The City" in Greek was later pronounced the way that Turks could pronounce it. The word has no actual meaning in Turkish.

[LeftEyeNine]

Byzantine Prince,

We are no longer invaders. Because, if it is Trachian part that you count to be geographically European it's been more than 500 years we are over there.

NAFTA founders are not native Americans, that validates my point. And as long as you do not visit Turkey, you will not be able to see that Greeks in Turkey are at least equivalents of Indians in USA. Where did you hear that please? There are even Greeks who moved to Greece but could not stand staying away from their homelands and coming back to live in Turkey under Turkish government. What can you call this then..please ?

[Redleg]

Byzantine Prince,

We are no longer invaders. Because, if it is Trachian part that you count to be geographically European it's been more than 500 years we are over there.

You could even futher show the racism in his statements and the error in his logic.

Did Rome and Greece both invade and hold what is now Turkey for several hundred years as rulers. During that time period would not the invaders have intermixed with the natives - hence intermixing European genetics into the people who live in the boundries of the present day nation of Turkey.

NAFTA founders are not native Americans, that validates my point. And as long as you do not visit Turkey, you will not be able to see that Greeks in Turkey are at least equivalents of Indians in USA. Where did you hear that please? There are even Greeks who moved to Greece but could not stand staying away from their homelands and coming back to live in Turkey under Turkish government. What can you call this then..please ?

See above statement - I think it also covers your point here just as well also,

[LeftEyeNine]

By the way, Istanbul and Ankara are names Mustafa Kemal Ataturk had changed after the foundation of Republic of Turkey.

[A.Saturnus]

I'm glad you admit that you are persuadable by rhetoric.

That is a consequence you have found for yourself.

It makes my act of dismissing anything you say very easy.
You should think hard about whether that´s good or bad for you.

It's called a European Union for a reason. Only European nation-states may enter, not one's that have invaded European soil.

Turkey is historically and culturally part of Europe. If the Turks are invaders, than we all are. The Neandertalers were here before us. It remains that basing political decisions on race is by definition racist.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

ANAL HISTORY ALERT:

Redleg: a large chunk of what is now Turkey had been Greek since long before the Roman/Greek invasions.

[Redleg]

ANAL HISTORY ALERT:

Redleg: a large chunk of what is now Turkey had been Greek since long before the Roman/Greek invasions.

Why thank you - I am somewhat ignorant on parts of European History - especially that of Turkish History (in fact almost all of Turkish History) - but it seems to me that you are not only confirming my statements - but adding even more strength to them.