Federal judge declares Pledge unconstitutional

[Kanamori]

Kids get sent home from school just for saying God bless you when somebody sneezes or wishing somebody a Merry Christmas.

Where has this happened? And your defeinition of left seems to be a strawman entirely.

[Don Corleone]

Where has this happened? And your defeinition of left seems to be a strawman entirely.

Gee, who do you think is banning religious expression? The religious right you're all so terrified of?

As for where it's happening... hmm..

Westfield High School, Boston MA: 7 students suspended from school for distributing candy canes with notes attached that explained the origins of candy canes (a shepherd's crook. The red & white represent the blood of Christ's martyrdom & the purity of His spirit).

Eric Bast, of Delhi California, was suspended for 10 days because he published a flyer that talked about the origins of Christmas (the birth of Christ).

And at the Virginia Military Institute, a federal appeals court ordered them to stop saying grace.

I could go find more examples, but I already know where this is going. You claim there's no move against Christianity. I show you examples of it, and you claim in each case they're justifiable. I don't have time for this, you're not going to convince me that there's not an organized secularist fundamentalism movement out there.

This is phase 1, where the secularists claim that legal prinicple requires that all religious expression be hidden from public view. We'll see where phase 2 takes us.

[drone]

GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My tax dollars are paying for this crap? When I was in school, if you didn't want to, you could leave out the "under God" part. Simple and easy. Sort of like offensive TV shows, if you don't like them, don't watch them. What's next? A lawsuit by people who don't want to use US currency because it says "In God We Trust"?

[Kanamori]

Gee, who do you think is banning religious expression?

Certainly, it must be all of the people on the left. Because I know that Klansmen are perfect examples of what the entirety of the right is like.

I could go find more examples, but I already know where this is going.

Actually, I guess you don't.

I'll admit, I was skeptical; nothing like that has ever happened anywhere I've gone to school. People have gotten suspened for swearing at teachers and the like, and that's about it. I have been shown the examples, they can rightly be decried. Be civil, I have never been uncivil towards you.

[Red Harvest]

Well, that's good because I haven't taken you seriously for months.

Like I said, I don't consider the pledge to be an issue worthy of debating over. But don't tell me there isn't a move in this country to outlaw religion.

Oh GET REAL, take off the tinfoil hat and dispense with the ridiculous conspiracy theories. No wonder your posts have been so hysterical. I see no effort afoot to ban religion. The problems we have as a nation on these issues are primarily from the intolerance of so called Christians towards fellow Christians whose views aren't so extreme and towards those who have different or no faith. These are the Christians who don't seem to understand the difference between the Old and New Testaments, and seem to be focused on the Old.

Why did I comment on moderates? Because while you tried to classify it as the Left, it was and IS clear to me that you feel the same about moderates who have the same view of separation of church and state and have clearly expressed that here repeatedly.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Gelatinous Cube says he wants all religions banned. Or something eerily close to that. In the "Atheism = Religion" thread.

[Ice]

This is ubsurd. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! It has been this way since 1812 and it should stay that way. Do non-believers really think the words "Under God" are going to influnce their children to suddenly start believing God? This is absolutely rediculous. You already don't have to stand up and recite the pledge. What's next, flag burning in school is required so all the Anarachists don't feel left out?

[AntiochusIII]

This is ubsurd. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! It has been this way since 1812 and it should stay that way. Do non-believers really think the words "Under God" are going to influnce their children to suddenly start believing God? This is absolutely rediculous. You already don't have to stand up and recite the pledge. What's next, flag burning in school is required so all the Anarachists don't feel left out?

Erm...I'm not sure but Red Harvest seems to point out that "under God" came much, much later as in the Cold War.

I, of course, am uninformed. And still wishing some would post more information on the pledge's history.

BTW, thanks for the contribution of another point of view on pg 2, Gawain.

Though I do agree it's a nonissue.

[Ice]

Erm...I'm not sure but Red Harvest seems to point out that "under God" came much, much later as in the Cold War.

I, of course, am uninformed. And still wishing some would post more information on the pledge's history.

BTW, thanks for the contribution of another point of view on pg 2, Gawain.

Though I do agree it's a nonissue.

I stand corrected. I should have looked it up. It was written in 1892 and the words "under god" added in 1954

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Sorry about that, but my view still stands.

[Proletariat]

Way to think before you type. You're exactly the problem here, along with all the other slippery-slope Chicken Littles.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Some of you seem to think the founding fathers were out of their minds and dont realise no christianity equals no United States as we know it . In fact the constitution would never have been written. If you destroy christianity in the US you kill our system of government. Its all based on the fact the we get our rights from a supreme power not of this earth. I dont give a rats ass what you call it. It is this god all you secularists and lefties dispise that gives us these rights. Its hard for me to believe any of you have a sense of history reading some of the crap thats spewed forth here.

[AntiochusIII]

Some of you seem to think the founding fathers were out of their minds

And you do realize you are basically saying you know what they think, and also disregarding the simple fact that it's like...wait...200+ years ago? And that at the age, democracy was considered radical?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And you do realize you are basically saying you know what they think,

Well since they wrote their thoughts down and eloquintly so the answer is yes.

and also disregarding the simple fact that it's like...wait...200+ years ago? And that at the age, democracy was considered radical?

Really. I thought it was already a few thousand years old. Besides what has this got to do with the constitution. Are we going to throw it out because it was written by christains?

[Ice]

Well since they wrote their thoughts down and eloquintly so the answer is yes.



Really. I thought it was already a few thousand years old. Besides what has this got to do with the constitution. Are we going to throw it out because it was written by christains?

I hope not. The United States is still a Christian country by far, and people are going to have to accept that. We tolerate all relgions, but the majority of us are christian.

[Soulforged]

The separation of secular society in general and religion, must happen, not only because it motivates rational thinking and desidence, but also because the power of the state must decrease eventually. Though this may seem like "freedom of speech", it's not. Why? Because that is a guarantee given by the state to the citezens and not the other way. The state is very pourly justified in it's very exisitence, so it's even more irrational to let them say what they want. If it's a public school (for instance i think subsidiated and ruled by the state, and a part of it's organs) then this kind of imposition cannot be constitutional, different is the case of the private schools. Here luckily this doesn't happens.

[khelvan]

I don't understand what is so upsetting about this. To this uninformed person, the "separation of church and state" has benefitted both church and state. The Church of England seems to be much less strong in England than Christianity is in the United States. This separation seems to benefit all parties.

Why does anyone get upset that a policy which has allowed the church to survive and thrive in this nation be upheld?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why does anyone get upset that a policy which has allowed the church to survive and thrive in this nation be upheld?

What policy would that be? Its the first amenment that protects religion here. The seperation crap does just the opposite. Again no where is this mentioned in the constitution. Once mopre the founding fathers considered this a christian nation and dont try to feed me that treaty of tripoli crap. Its easily rebuffed.

[khelvan]

Once mopre the founding fathers considered this a christian nation and dont try to feed me that treaty of tripoli crap. Its easily rebuffed.

I see, so what the "founding fathers" wrote, from what you say earlier, allows us to understand exactly what they wanted, except when it disagrees with your pet theory?

[Redleg]

It really is a non-issue. So what if a judge declares the Pledge unconstitutional - it has absolutely no bearing on matters in the nation. The pledge is not a requirment of citizenship imposed on us by the government.

If a school wants to say the pledge of alligence - so what. If a school doesn't want their students to say the pledge of alligence - so what.

1) The founding fathers would of laughed this off. Many of the founding fathers would of scoffed at the idea of a pledge of allegience.

2) Schools for the most part are managed by the county or school district - not by a Federal Mandated system. What each school does or doesn't do is actually more around what the state requires of it - then Federal oversite. This seems to be more of someone wanting to make a Federal Issue of something that is really only a local issue.

3) If your school district wants you to say the pledge in class and you don't want to say it - then its unconsitutional. However if the school recites the pledge and gives you the option to say it or not - then its really not unconstitutional by the standards of the constitution as it is written.

4) Seperation of church and state is not written in the consitution its based upon writtings of Thomas Jefferson - one of the main contributors to the drafting but not the sole one. The constitution only states what it does in the 1st Amendment - in the freedom of speech - freedom of religion statements made. Varying interpations are available - however most that say its unconstitutional are really not refering to the constitution itself - but to papers and letters written by Thomas Jefferson only.

5) Again the pledge would only be unconstitutional if your forced to say it.

[Slyspy]

As a Brit I am looking forward to seeing whether the Christian or secular fundamentalists win this one. According to the people on this forum the States are awash with both these groups and at any moment the old system will be swept away and a new order established. Presumably this will involve the destruction of the tolerant and democractic country we now see but, ah well, so long as the fools in this world get what they want....

I intend to profit from these epic powerstruggles over the inclusion of two words in an oath which doesn't have to be taken and therefore has no meaning anyway. This I shall do by selling kindling, whether the fires are to be set for the burning of heretics or for the burning of Bibles.

[Proletariat]

5) Again the pledge would only be unconstitutional if your forced to say it.

Bravo. Precisely what I tried but failed miserably to get out yesterday.

The thread can pretty much be locked now.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Again the pledge would only be unconstitutional if your forced to say it.

And this is why his ruling will definetly be overturned. All those of you who want it gone dont stand a chance. Again the mention of God in no way establishes a religion. Belief in god is not a religion and therefore the mention of god cannot be seen as establishing a religion.

On the matter of them adding this becaiuse of the cold war. It wasnt just symbolic. We then truly believed we were a christain nation and that the Russians were doomed and bad because of their lack of belief. Also lost in this little debate is the fact the the US indeed was one nation formed under god from the get go.