Canada's last working sub?

[Reverend Joe]

the replies to my post show an extreme dislike for the troops of their nation.

[Vladimir]

It's all about perceived need. The US and Canada may disagree on various issues but neither has come to blows since our (US) disastrous winter assault. Socialist countries can't afford large militaries and Canada has no need for one even if it could afford it.

[TinCow]

If the US and the rest of the world just stood by I have no doubt that China could succesfully invade Canada tommorow.

No chance. I do not doubt that China has the capability to produce sufficient transports and other such equipment if it decided to do so and the rest of the world stood by. However, China currently has no aircraft carrier fleet and, lacking any forward air bases close to Canada, would have essentially no air cover for such an operation. The Canadian Air Force has well over a hundred F-18s and would absolutely ravage any incoming naval force that did could not obtain air superiority.

Again, no doubt China could do it if they devoted the resources to it, but they couldn't do it tomorrow.

[CBR]

If the US and the rest of the world just stood by I have no doubt that China could succesfully invade Canada tommorow.

Tsk tsk Gawain you dont know much about the Chinese navy then?

They would need to be able to ship and supply several divisions to take out the Canadian army. They dont have that capacity right now. Plus the distances involved does not make things easier either.

They would need to protect the ships from the Canadian airforce. That requires carriers which they dont have any of.

The level of technology of their surface ships as well as army is also not on the level of the Canadian navy and army.

I doubt China could invade Taiwan even if USA stayed out.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/plan/


CBR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1130810260038
Canada only has one working sub? What the hell does their Army consist of? A hockey team dressed in camo? I didn't realise that the Canadian military was this unfunded. Where are all those tax dollars going too?

And a few million angry gun owners.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

National health care

And the Liberal Party.

[GoreBag]

All those faulty subs you nasty Brits sold us are now museum pieces. You jerks. Seriously, though, using something that's broken is a pretty Canadian thing to do. We can handle a malfunctioning boat.

Actually, I remember hearing about a wargame Canada partook in with the US with that very sub, outdated as it is. The sub sank three American ships and escaped undetected. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

[Byzantine Prince]

How many times a day do you have to tell yourself in order to actually believe that?

Not any more then you have to tell yourself you are winning in Iraq.

This is assuming it is a long and drawn out war. If someone were to invade Canada today they would be in deep doo doo. The reason they dont need subs or a large standing army is they have us. Same for most of Europe.

You can barely control Iraq, nevermind any part of Europe. I'de like to see the US invade at most one more country in the next 10 years. That'll stretch your army to the point that you will end worse then in Vietnam and Korea combined.

[Reverend Joe]

Actually, I remember hearing about a wargame Canada partook in with the US with that very sub, outdated as it is. The sub sank three American ships and escaped undetected. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

That is the best thing I have ever heard. An old, leaky rustbucket managed to "sink" three of our state-of-the-art submarines- and we didn't even catch him!

[Ronin]

That is the best thing I have ever heard. An old, leaky rustbucket managed to "sink" three of our state-of-the-art submarines- and we didn't even catch him!

loool....not so hard it seems....

a few years ago one of our Portuguese submarines participated in an exercise and it actually "sinked" an american aircraft carrier.....

and i´m talking about real rustbuckets here....ships built in 1968 or 69 i sure as hell wouldn´t go for a ride on one of them if someone paid me 10000000000$


moral of the story?....technology...smelogy.....anyone can take anyone else out...at least once

Details on the portuguese subs ...i´ll try to find a link with the actual story of the "incident"

[GoreBag]

That is the best thing I have ever heard. An old, leaky rustbucket managed to "sink" three of our state-of-the-art submarines- and we didn't even catch him!

Not submarines. Destroyers, I think. Still looking for a link...

EDIT: This may or may not be in reference to the same incident of which I was informed.

Clickity click.

[TinCow]

Interestingly, old diesel submarines can be harder to detect than modern nuclear submarines. The reason being that a diesal sub can turn off all of its machinery and run completely silently off of batteries. A nuclear sub can never shut off its reactor and as such can never completely eliminate its noise signature.

In some situations low-tech is better.

[yesdachi]

Not submarines. Destroyers, I think. Still looking for a link...

EDIT: This may or may not be in reference to the same incident of which I was informed.

Clickity click.

Interesting paper under the clickity click but not too surprising. Subs, even outdated ones outclass most ships. That’s one of the reasons that other countries with subs are a threat (or at least in the movies ).

[lars573]

My problem with this story is that its disgraceful to have your sailors on a malfunctioning sub when its your ONLY working sub. I would think there would be more of an outrage but appearantly not since from the replies to my post show an extreme dislike for the troops of their nation. Those men and women manning the sub are Canadian citizens and deserve better.

You have no idea what Canadians are willing to gumble to no end but never take real action about. We put up with Americans don't we, the slightly aggrevating older brother. We still send our fairly new Halifax class frigates out to sea with 1 60's vintage sea king helicoptor. The fact that the air force (the Canadian military has been 1 combined service for like 30 years) keeps those things in the air is a friggin miracle. We spend about 20-30 billion (I forget the exact figure) annually on our military. That translates into 50,000 army troops 2 or 3 groups of fighters and some c-130 tansports and about 50 naval vessels.

[GoreBag]

Lars, the Canadian military hasn't been unified for almost ten years.

[PanzerJaeger]

You can barely control Iraq, nevermind any part of Europe. I'de like to see the US invade at most one more country in the next 10 years. That'll stretch your army to the point that you will end worse then in Vietnam and Korea combined.

Actually, the more civilized a country is, the easier it is to occupy. France was much easier to occupy than Russia during ww2. People are a lot more willing to accept occupation if they actually have something to lose by opposing it.

If you had to pick between leaving your comfortable home and all its comforts to go live in the wilderness and fight an unbeatable army, or live in relative peace and prosperity under occupation, chances are a lot of people would choose to complain but not act.

However, if you're dirt poor and dont really have much better to do, the glory of war is a lot more appealing.

[Ironside]

Interestingly, old diesel submarines can be harder to detect than modern nuclear submarines. The reason being that a diesal sub can turn off all of its machinery and run completely silently off of batteries. A nuclear sub can never shut off its reactor and as such can never completely eliminate its noise signature.

In some situations low-tech is better.

Could explain why the US is training vs Swedish diesel subs (with Swedish crew, rented ). Seems to be needed according to what has been mentioned here.

[The Stranger]

Gah

[drone]

Could explain why the US is training vs Swedish diesel subs (with Swedish crew, rented ). Seems to be needed according to what has been mentioned here.

From what I understand, diesel subs are excellent for coastal defense. The battery power can keep them going silently, and range is not really an issue when hugging a coastline. Also, if they get sunk on a coastline, you don't have a radioactive mess washing onto your beaches.

I think the North Koreans have lots of diesel subs. The US Navy probably needs practice to counter them, since they don't have any of their own.

[lars573]

Lars, the Canadian military hasn't been unified for almost ten years.

Who ever told you that was a dirty liar or living under a rock. It's still one service all the way.

[Slyspy]

We sold you those subs in good faith. Shame you didn't check them on delivery......

[Goofball]

Wow, so much to comment on, and all in one thread! We'll go in reverse order:

Lars, the Canadian military hasn't been unified for almost ten years.

Who ever told you that was a dirty liar or living under a rock. It's still one service all the way.

Lars, either you're being sarcastic or you don't know what you are talking about.

Socialist countries can't afford large militaries and Canada has no need for one even if it could afford it.

Canada isn't a socialist country.

My problem with this story is that its disgraceful to have your sailors on a malfunctioning sub when its your ONLY working sub. I would think there would be more of an outrage but appearantly not since from the replies to my post show an extreme dislike for the troops of their nation. Those men and women manning the sub are Canadian citizens and deserve better.

Truer words were never spoken, my friend.

Now for the fun part:

Canada actually has one of the best trained armies in the world. If we were to match them man for man in a wargame of some sort, they would easily whip our asses. They just have no reason to go to war- who wants to invade a deep freeze? You would get more out of invading Siberia.

Maybe in a game they could beat us but not in actual battle.Remeber most US troops are now battle hardened veterans. Canada couldnt even take on our Marines and stand a chance in a conventional war.

The only reason why we wouldn't be able to stand up to the Marines is that even by themselves they outnumber the entire Canadian Armed Forces by a large margin. The entirety of our regular (not including reserves and militia) ground combat forces consists of three very understrength regiments of light infantry, and I believe a single regiment of artillery and a single regiment of armor.

But quite frankly G, a battalion from any of our infantry regiments would kick the everloving snot out of a battalion of Marines every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

When I was with 3PPCLI, a battalion of Marines came up to do an excercise with us and honestly, they didn't know what the hell they were doing. Quite a funny story

Seeing as how it was Marines (as opposed to Army) coming up for the excercise, our CO figured it would be appropriate to do a joint amphibious landing, then do a combined assualt up the side of a big hill. The Marine CO said (this is my favorite part) that he didn't think the amphibious landing was such a good idea, since "a lot of his guys couldn't swim."

"Couldn't swim."

Jesus wept... Isn't this the frickin' Marine Corps we're talking about here?

Anyhow, our CO said that's fine, but can you let us use your landing craft so our guys can do the landing, and your guys can take buses out and just meet us at the beachhead. No problem.

So we do our landing, then wait a little while for the Marines to show up on the cozy, heated (it was a bit of a chilly night) buses we provided. We then form up to do an assault up a big hill, with Canadians in the center and on the right, and the Marines on the left.

So, we begin our attack. Pretty standard, lay down fire support with heavy weapons, and use fire and movement tactics to advance toward the enemy. Except that apparently that's not how Marines do things (or did things, back then anyway). As soon as the shooting started, they got up and charged up the hill in a mad, screaming rush. Which in itself, might not have been that bad. Except they were also veering to the right as they charged, right through all of the Canadian interlocking fields of fire. Even though we were pretty quick to react to this clusterf*** (did I mention this was at night?) and stopped firing, the damage was done and the umpire staff declared a large part of the Marine force killed by friendly fire.

As far as the U.S. forces being battle-hardened veterans now, you are correct G. That would definitely have an impact. But the same can be said of the Canadian troops. There are very few of our reg force infantry troops that have not been involved in real combat operations over the last 15 years.

Having said all that, we also used to go down to Fort Lewis and work with the Rangers quite a bit. Those guys had their crap together pretty good and (for the most part, anyway) could keep up with us during PT. Some of the most fun I ever had was doing live fire jungle lanes that they set up for us.

[Beirut]

Goofball,

You were in the PPCLI?

(Beirut bows in respect.)

Once we get our delivery of F-35 JSFs, new helicopters, and keep up the upgrades on our CF-18s and City Class frigates, we'll be in good shape. Our guys are top notch, they simply need better equipment and more training dollars.

Napoleon said the moral is to the physical as three to one. We've got the moral, so when we get the physical we'll truly be first rate.

[Papewaio]

Canada, got to love the Maple Syrup.

Australians and Canadian backpackers have already taken over the world!

[AntiochusIII]

Australians and Canadian backpackers have already taken over the world!

I hope they take over Thailand soon! That country needs a lot of modernization, especially to stop that dictator-in-democratic-clothes Thaksin.

We're relying on you, Australians!

Back to the issue of Canadian military; I am genuinely interested in Canadian military history. How much, in terms of scale, time, and actions; did the Canadian regiments participate in the two World Wars, for instance? Were they also in Korea during the Korean War?

Edit: Thanks a lot for the link below, Papewaio!

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I didn't know Canadia still had an army...isn't about half of it set to retire in the next five years?

Seriously, 1 on 1 you can't beat us. Mainly because American's are more violent, ravenous, and bloodlust-ey than Canadians are (with the exception of Beirut, of course).

Also, our generals aren't very smart, so yeah.

The US Regular army should be as well trained as the Marines and the Marines as well trained as...well...übermarines.

[Papewaio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada

On August 4, 1914, Britain entered WWI by declaring war on Germany. The British declaration of war automatically brought Canada into the war, because it was still part of the British Empire. However, the Canadian government had the freedom to determine the country's level of involvement in the war. Canada eventually sent five divisions to fight on the Western Front.

In the later stages of the war, the Canadian Corps, like the Australian Corps, was regarded as among the most effective and respected of the armies on the Western Front, possibly because the Commonwealth armies were healthier and often less fatigued than the larger European armies. Indeed, in the aftermath of the Battle of the Somme, the Canadian Corps developed a reputation as shock troops which were feared by the Germans.

Of a population just over 11 million more than one and a half million Canadians served in the Second World War. Of these more than 45,000 gave their lives, and another 55,000 were wounded. Countless others shared the suffering and hardship of war. By the end of the war Canada was the fourth strongest military power in the world behind only the USA, the USSR and Britain.

[Beirut]

Seriously, 1 on 1 you can't beat us. Mainly because American's are more violent, ravenous, and bloodlust-ey than Canadians are (with the exception of Beirut, of course).

Bloodlust-ey?

I vote Liberal, believe in socialized medicine, give money to Greenpeace, support the legalization of marijuana, support gay rights, woman's rights, and oppose the war in Iraq.

I'm as typically Canadian as they come.

As for our military, read the history of places like Vimy Ridge and Ortona. Our boys were first class right across the board.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Canada, got to love the Maple Syrup.

Australians and Canadian backpackers have already taken over the world!

Pape shame on you! Vermont makes the best syrup!!! Not the most of course, but we do make the best. If global warming continues though Canada will eventually get the best weather for syrup production....

Unfortunately I don't have much to add about Canada's military, except to mention that they don't really seem to need the submarine in the first place....

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Bloodlust-ey?

I vote Liberal, believe in socialized medicine, give money to Greenpeace, support the legalization of marijuana, support gay rights, woman's rights, and oppose the war in Iraq.

I'm as typically Canadian as they come.

As for our military, read the history of places like Vimy Ridge and Ortona. Our boys were first class right across the board.

But...but...but...the axe!