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Thread: CIA runs network of secret prisons

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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default CIA runs network of secret prisons

    I won't distract you all by calling them 'Gulags' (though, interestingly, in fact some of the prisons are actually soviet-era facilities in eastern Europe), but more details are emerging that show the CIA is not upholding the geneva conventions nor refraining from cruel, unusual and degrading punishment:

    CIA holds terror suspects in secret prisons
    Debate grows within agency about legality, morality of approach
    FREE VIDEO


    • U.S. holds suspects in secret prisons
    Nov. 2: According to a report in The Washington Post, confirmed by NBC News, the CIA has been holding terror suspects in secret prisons abroad. NBC's Andrea Mitchell reports.

    Updated: 7:57 a.m. ET Nov. 2, 2005
    The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

    The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.


    The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism. It depends on the cooperation of foreign intelligence services, and on keeping even basic information about the system secret from the public, foreign officials and nearly all members of Congress charged with overseeing the CIA's covert actions.



    The existence and locations of the facilities -- referred to as "black sites" in classified White House, CIA, Justice Department and congressional documents -- are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country.

    The CIA and the White House, citing national security concerns and the value of the program, have dissuaded Congress from demanding that the agency answer questions in open testimony about the conditions under which captives are held. Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.

    While the Defense Department has produced volumes of public reports and testimony about its detention practices and rules after the abuse scandals at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at Guantanamo Bay, the CIA has not even acknowledged the existence of its black sites. To do so, say officials familiar with the program, could open the U.S. government to legal challenges, particularly in foreign courts, and increase the risk of political condemnation at home and abroad.

    Growing concerns
    But the revelations of widespread prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq by the U.S. military -- which operates under published rules and transparent oversight of Congress -- have increased concern among lawmakers, foreign governments and human rights groups about the opaque CIA system. Those concerns escalated last month, when Vice President Cheney and CIA Director Porter J. Goss asked Congress to exempt CIA employees from legislation already endorsed by 90 senators that would bar cruel and degrading treatment of any prisoner in U.S. custody.

    Although the CIA will not acknowledge details of its system, intelligence officials defend the agency's approach, arguing that the successful defense of the country requires that the agency be empowered to hold and interrogate suspected terrorists for as long as necessary and without restrictions imposed by the U.S. legal system or even by the military tribunals established for prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

    The Washington Post is not publishing the names of the Eastern European countries involved in the covert program, at the request of senior U.S. officials. They argued that the disclosure might disrupt counterterrorism efforts in those countries and elsewhere and could make them targets of possible terrorist retaliation.

    The secret detention system was conceived in the chaotic and anxious first months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the working assumption was that a second strike was imminent.

    Since then, the arrangement has been increasingly debated within the CIA, where considerable concern lingers about the legality, morality and practicality of holding even unrepentant terrorists in such isolation and secrecy, perhaps for the duration of their lives. Mid-level and senior CIA officers began arguing two years ago that the system was unsustainable and diverted the agency from its unique espionage mission.
    The article contines for several more pages at:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9890829/
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  2. #2
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Awesome!!!
    RIP Tosa

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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    "Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long."

    Seems to me that facilities such as these are necessary in warfare and spycraft, both of which we are heavily involved in at the current time. While I certainly have problems with the way we have acted lately, I do not doubt that our intelligence agencies need to interrogate people in secure facilities to maintain the safety of the nation and our troops. Given that the above quote states that nothing is known about who is kept there and what is being done, I will not raise my voice in protest. Until someone shows me evidence of abuse that is not necessary for our security, I do not have a problem with this.


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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    The Geneva Conventions don't apply to unconventional fighters. There is a certain amendment which the US has not agreed to but that many European countries have that grants "terrorists" (unconventional fighters) rights under the conventions. I personally think it's great. You can make all the moral and philosophical arguments you want but they mean nothing. Research what happened to pacify the Philippines and tell me if those arguments hold any weight. What is required is a paradigm shift in the Arab/Islamic world to make these people realize that their own oppressive governments are the reason for their misery, not US. If the US was responsible for all they say we are then Canada, Germany, Japan, etc would be in a world of hurt.

    And:

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow
    Seems to me that facilities such as these are necessary in warfare and spycraft, both of which we are heavily involved in at the current time. While I certainly have problems with the way we have acted lately, I do not doubt that our intelligence agencies need to interrogate people in secure facilities to maintain the safety of the nation and our troops. Given that the above quote states that nothing is known about who is kept there and what is being done, I will not raise my voice in protest. Until someone shows me evidence of abuse that is not necessary for our security, I do not have a problem with this.
    Last edited by Vladimir; 11-02-2005 at 19:29.


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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Great!!!
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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Whether there is abuse or not is unimportant. The CIA has always gotten away with trying to act above the rules, and that is just not the way things should work. All things done by us should be done by our system--one should not be allowed simply to call up the Gestapo and have them set up shop in another country.
    I agree, however there is no evidence of wrong-doing here. There is simply a statement that secure interrogation facilities exist. Since I believe that there are perfectly legitimate uses for such facilities under our system, I will not be outraged by their existence unless they are being abused.


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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow
    I agree, however there is no evidence of wrong-doing here. There is simply a statement that secure interrogation facilities exist. Since I believe that there are perfectly legitimate uses for such facilities under our system, I will not be outraged by their existence unless they are being abused.
    Didn't you learn anything from Iran Contra? The seriousness of the charge is what's important not the facts of the case.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    I found a batter use for this picture. Removed.
    Last edited by Reverend Joe; 11-02-2005 at 22:58.

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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    I'm outraged simply by their existence. That this administration has the gall to go ahead and set up camp in another country for it's dirty-work, and hope nobody notices.
    There are plenty of reasons to have secure facilities close to where action is taking place. No one was outraged that the CIA had (and still has) safe houses all over the world to take captured spies or to protect defectors during the Cold War. Often it would take so long to get the people back to the US that information could become unusable. I understand what you're upset by, but it's not in my nature to start pointing fingers with nothing more than rumor to go on.

    In order to maintain national security in the modern world, there must be secrets. If every Joe Blow on the street knew everything about our military and intelligence operations, we'd be in serious trouble. I accept that some things must be kept covert, especially when it comes to intelligence gathering. Yes, I am disturbed by the Iraqi prison scandal; yes, I am concerned about Guantanamo, but I do not see anything like that here.


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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    So, let me get this straight:

    We now know:

    1. The US government has set up a system of secret prisons.

    2. We have no idea who is being held in them, for how long, on what charges, where they have been taken from and whether or not their captors are being allowed to torture them.

    3. The Bush administration has asked the Senate to strike out language that would prevent the CIA from conducting torture against detainees.

    4. There are repeated reports of torture and abuse throughout facilities associated with the US 'war on terror'; the US governments has been rocked by scandals from Abu Ghraib, Bagram Air Base, etc., where detainees were forced to sit in their own feces, smeared with menstrual fluid, collared like dogs, had their arms broken and, in several cases, were beaten and suffocated to death by their captors.

    5. You're not at all worried by what might be happening in these secret prisons, and you feel the onus is on others to somehow find evidence of abuse at these secret facilities before you would be worried?

    I'm just not really sure I understand such a perspective. I'm sure the Romans didn't much care what happened to the Visigoths until they came charging over the seventh hill. I just can't help but think of this as hubris.

    I guess all men are created equal, unless they're not Americans.
    Last edited by Hurin_Rules; 11-02-2005 at 20:48.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    The Washington Post is not publishing the names of the Eastern European countries involved in the covert program, at the request of senior U.S. officials. They argued that the disclosure might disrupt counterterrorism efforts in those countries and elsewhere and could make them targets of possible terrorist retaliation.
    That must be the funniest passage in the American press for some time. 'Counterterrorism' indeed!
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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    5. You're not at all worried by what might be happening in these secret prisons, and you feel the onus is on others to somehow find evidence of abuse at these secret facilities before you would be worried?

    I'm just not really sure I understand such a perspective. I'm sure the Romans didn't much care what happened to the Visigoths until they came charging over the seventh hill. I just can't help but think of this as hubris.

    I guess all men are created equal, unless they're not Americans.
    I never said I was not worried. It's clear that we're reading this new article differently though. Here's what we know from my perspective:

    1) The CIA continues to operate secure safe houses around the world just as it and many other nations have done for decades.

    2) High level Al Queda operatives may or may not be held at one or more of these facilities.

    3) Assuming said operatives are in fact held at these facilities, their senior nature gives a high probability that they will have information that relates to planned attacks on various targets around the world.

    4) Not all methods of interrogation are illegal or repulsive to morality.

    I will rant and rave about Bush's policies and mistakes until I am blue in the face. However I simply refuse to start badmouthing the people who are protecting me when there is a) no evidence of wrongdoing and b) a perfectly legitimate explanation for their behaviour. It is this kind of thinking that sends innocent men to jail.
    Last edited by TinCow; 11-02-2005 at 21:09.


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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    No evidence of wrongdoing? The Italian goverment has released arrest warrants for CIA operatives. Clearly, they had enough for an indictment.
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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    I guess all men are created equal, unless they're not Americans.
    Yes...
    RIP Tosa

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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons


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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    No evidence of wrongdoing? The Italian goverment has released arrest warrants for CIA operatives. Clearly, they had enough for an indictment.
    How is that related to these prisons?


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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Wink Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow
    How is that related to these prisons?
    as I remember those indictements were for kidnapping....it´s reasonable to assume that the people that were "kidnapped" would be taken to these facilities.
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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    as I remember those indictements were for kidnapping....it´s reasonable to assume that the people that were "kidnapped" would be taken to these facilities.
    The only people that article indicates that could be in these prisons are "most important al Qaeda captives." As far as I am aware, it is impossible to illegally kidnap a terrorist who is actively involved in armed attacks on civilians. We normally call this "capturing" them.


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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    I wonder if their will be an independant counsel to investigate who leaked this information?
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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    I wonder if their will be an independant counsel to investigate who leaked this information?
    Hopefully when they find out (I'm sure it was some Demorat senator or congressman) they'll get sent to one of these locations as well...
    RIP Tosa

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Wink Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow
    The only people that article indicates that could be in these prisons are "most important al Qaeda captives." As far as I am aware, it is impossible to illegally kidnap a terrorist who is actively involved in armed attacks on civilians. We normally call this "capturing" them.
    unless US secret agents have some sort of judisdiction on italian soil (and the court seems to consider that they don´t) just grabbing some guy by force out of the street is considered kidnapping by any definition I am familiar with....
    if you want to capture a criminal in a foreign country there are treaties in place for such situations...use them.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    I'm outraged simply by their existence. That this administration has the gall to go ahead and set up camp in another country for it's dirty-work, and hope nobody notices.
    You can’t really think that this the first time we have had black ops setups in other countries and that it is this administration is the first that has made it happen. IMO this stuff has been going on since before the CIA was even formed, we just don’t get to see it on the cover of the Post because sometimes “Top Secret” is really a secret. I think it is crap that the media can discover this “Top Secret” stuff and expose it all over the place and not be held criminally responsible. IMO this is another attempt to attack the right, the GOP and Bush about the total failure the Iraq war has become. Good lord, everyone already knows it! Bushes approval rating is the worst ever, they don’t need to out our secret hideouts too. Each of which probably costs a billion dollars and now we’ll need a bunch of new ones because these are all found out.

    Dang, can’t anyone in our government keep a freaking secret anymore?
    Top Secret = Keep your mouth shut!
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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    IMO this stuff has been going on since before the CIA was even formed, we just don’t get to see it on the cover of the Post because sometimes “Top Secret” is really a secret. I think it is crap that the media can discover this “Top Secret” stuff and expose it all over the place and not be held criminally responsible. IMO this is another attempt to attack the right, the GOP and Bush about the total failure the Iraq war has become. Good lord, everyone already knows it! Bushes approval rating is the worst ever, they don’t need to out our secret hideouts too. Each of which probably costs a billion dollars and now we’ll need a bunch of new ones because these are all found out.

    Dang, can’t anyone in our government keep a freaking secret anymore?
    Top Secret = Keep your mouth shut!
    It's not the fault of the press. Unless you hold a security clearance, you can pretty much say what you want. Many times the press will not report sensitive information (these responsible members of the press are becoming a rare breed though).

    Also remember, just because the press reports it, does not make it true. Not having a clearance means you don't have access and could just be reporting hearsay, or you are being lied to, or set up for political purposes.

    Anyone with a clearance leaking this information (if it's classified) to the press should lose their clearances and be prosecuted. Plain and simple.
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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Alright, just to clarify... I'm trying not to rush to judgment without specific evidence. There is certainly cause for concern based on past experiences, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt first. I make great efforts to differentiate between the administration and the rest of the government and the military. I believe that the majority are good people and thus I feel that I would be doing them a disservice to attack them without any facts. As soon as evidence comes out of abuse in these facilities, I will be amongst the first to express my disapproval.


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    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    adios Geneva Convention

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by drone
    It's not the fault of the press. Unless you hold a security clearance, you can pretty much say what you want. Many times the press will not report sensitive information (these responsible members of the press are becoming a rare breed though).
    True but not quite. If I somehow know something classified or secret and blab about it I could be arrested but if a reporter writes about it they are safe from prosecution. I don’t know the specifics but I am sure there is a difference.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by solypsist
    adios Geneva Convention
    You may have missed this the first time.

    The Geneva Conventions don't apply to unconventional fighters.
    That's fact. It's also a fact that people went to jail for Abu Greb. No scandal or cover up. The military was openly conducting an investigation long before photos were published. A few Soldies broke the rules and went to jail.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  28. #28

    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    You may have missed this the first time.

    The Geneva Conventions don't apply to unconventional fighters.
    Yes it does as stipulated in article 3 of the conventions , and if you want to carry on there are numerous other articles , clauses and sub clauses that apply .

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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    You may have missed this the first time.

    The Geneva Conventions don't apply to unconventional fighters.

    That's fact. It's also a fact that people went to jail for Abu Greb. No scandal or cover up. The military was openly conducting an investigation long before photos were published. A few Soldies broke the rules and went to jail.
    To what extent were the Taleban 'unconventional' fighters?

    They were the militia of the government of Afghanistan. The Geneva Conventions recognize militias as falling under the jurisdiction of the conventions. Even Redleg has acknowledged this, and that the laws DO apply to them.

    Moreover, the Geneva Conventions stipulate that IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT about their status, fair and impartial tribunals are to be held to determine their status. Even the inmates at Guantanamo were given something resembling these (although even the US Bar association and the US military's own lawyers complained that they were not at all fair). Are you alleging that the secret prisons we've just been learning about have been holding fair and impartial hearings on their prisoners status?
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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA runs network of secret prisons

    I wonder where does those CIA branches stop...
    Later people ask why is that those conspiracy theorist even exist? I think the answer is out there...(well many are just wackos but...)
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