General bodyguards

In most of my games the generals have a tendency to be the unit with most kills, which is quite unrealistic and ahistorical.

Except for rebels and barbarian factions generals seldom engaged in close combat, leading from behind the lines (we all know Alexander, but that was quite an exception)...

What I've done to my games is to mod down bodyguard numbers, so that one has to be really careful when engaging the general... It should be really done only to tip the balance, not to mown down the enemy line...

The criteria I used are:

- Rebels retain the standard bodyguard size (obviously they have small armies and need to actively engage the enemy)

- Barbarians are modded to 8 units (historically they fought but a leader should know when to risk his own life)

- Everything else gets 6 units ( general bodyguards were usually used to just "inspire" and they fought only when their own army was routing, but their role was just to shield the general and bring him to safety)

What do you think about it?

Does this actually have any effect on the number of bodyguard within a campaign - as their numbers aren't obviously linked to the number in edu.

The numbers are into export_desc_unit file, and they affects any new campaign you start... There are some AI issues to consider but I think Darth fixed that with his formation mod...

I certainly like the idea - have you cut upkeep at the same time? Does it have any effect on the rate at which the number of bodyguards increase as the character develops?

Originally Posted by Zarax

What I've done to my games is to mod down bodyguard numbers, so that one has to be really careful when engaging the general... It should be really done only to tip the balance, not to mown down the enemy line...

And even when tipping the balance was the object, this was frequently done on foot. In his Commentaries, Caesar mentions once removing all horses from sight to show his men he's sharing their fortune, and then joining battle.
In another place he describes taking a shield from a soldier in the rear and moving to the front line.

I can only think of a single case of a Roman commander plunging headlong into combat on horseback. Livy mentions during the Latin revolt that the consul Decius, the auspices having predicted his death, attacked the Latins alone.

Originally Posted by Zarax

- Rebels retain the standard bodyguard size (obviously they have small armies and need to actively engage the enemy)

- Barbarians are modded to 8 units (historically they fought but a leader should know when to risk his own life)

- Everything else gets 6 units ( general bodyguards were usually used to just "inspire" and they fought only when their own army was routing, but their role was just to shield the general and bring him to safety)

I agree entirely with your last remark in parentheses.

I strongly agree that bodyguards should be smaller. At 6 men per bodyguard unit, faction leaders will typically have a bodyguard about half the size of a unit of regular cavalry, which still might be too large. Perhaps the question is "How small can the bodyguard unit be and still provide reasonable protection (in game terms) to the general?".

The only concern I have about shrinking the bodyguard is making AI generals even more vulnerable than they aleady are, given their suicidal tendencies. While a smaller bodyguard might make a human player more careful with his general's unit, I doubt the AI will act any differently.

Have you actually checked this in the campaign? Because from what I recall, prior to 1.3 this didn't actually change the size of the general's bodyguard...although I didn't actually check it...I was going to, but experienced modders said it didn't work.

It mostly works in 1.2. It appears to me that the bodyguard sizes for the faction leader and faction heir are too large, but the other family members have bodyguards of the right size.

When I set number of men to 6 for the roman general's bodyguard in EDU, the Julii bodyguard unit sizes plateau after a few turns at:

36 men (Flavius J)
26 men (Lucius J)
14 men (Vibius J)
12 men (Quintus J)

(Large unit scale)

Perhaps the bodyguard size bonuses don't scale with the unit scale, or maybe it was just a bug.

Everything works as I would expect in 1.3.

Equally, when I tried bumping the Frankish bodyguard to 60 the characters (and new characters) had 62.

Faction leaders and heirs have a bonus to their bodyguard size, other generals will start the base size + influence and retinues/trait modifiers.

Most interesting.

Originally Posted by Zarax

Faction leaders and heirs have a bonus to their bodyguard size, other generals will start the base size + influence and retinues/trait modifiers.

Right, the specifics as far as people have determined are here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47146

What surprised me was that the faction leader's bodyguard was 3x the standard general's. With the settings I normally use it's always about 2x. I'm assuming that the size modifiers just don't scale with the unit scale.

Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Equally, when I tried bumping the Frankish bodyguard to 60 the characters (and new characters) had 62.

If you mean changing the number of men in EDU to 60, any number greater than 31 is treated as 31. On the large scale this means 62 guys in the bodyguard.

See https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56026

Originally Posted by Atilius

It mostly works in 1.2. It appears to me that the bodyguard sizes for the faction leader and faction heir are too large, but the other family members have bodyguards of the right size.

When I set number of men to 6 for the roman general's bodyguard in EDU, the Julii bodyguard unit sizes plateau after a few turns at:

36 men (Flavius J)
26 men (Lucius J)
14 men (Vibius J)
12 men (Quintus J)

(Large unit scale)

Perhaps the bodyguard size bonuses don't scale with the unit scale, or maybe it was just a bug.

Everything works as I would expect in 1.3.

That is interesting...nice to see the lower level bodyguards are smaller. I'm still puzzled about the 3X faction leader through...as you say 2X has been the norm for me on "large." Occassionally one gets into the 50's after a number of fights.

I do remember in 1.2 some Roman family members in the mid/upper teens on large...don't know why they were that way.