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  1. #1
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by strike for the south
    YUP. The goverment is going to fail so I choose the option where not as many americans die for a country which will just break up anyway
    That's nonsense. A breakup and civil war are not forgone conclusions. Most Iraqis want democracy to succeed and this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out. Our forces need to remain to provide stability until democratic institutions take hold. We also need to continue clearing insurgent strongholds and garrisoning them with Iraqi forces.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    That's nonsense. A breakup and civil war are not forgone conclusions. Most Iraqis want democracy to succeed and this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out. Our forces need to remain to provide stability until democratic institutions take hold. We also need to continue clearing insurgent strongholds and garrisoning them with Iraqi forces.
    I havent seen any democracy loving Iraqis. Everyday its "Suicide bombing, ambush, beheading." Sure there are probably some but its not enough. We are just breeding more hate from the Iraqis towards us towards the ethnic groups in the reigon. Hell these guys are fighting eachother now with us there. Sure we can kill insurgents but we will never get all of them. I say leave and let them sort it out its not if but when and I perfer we leave now
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by strike for the south
    I havent seen any democracy loving Iraqis. Everyday its "Suicide bombing, ambush, beheading."
    Blame the media for that- not the Iraqis. What about the millions that risked their lives by coming out to vote in the last 2 elections or the millions more that will be coming out this week to elect their first democratic government in decades. Why are they risking murder and death to vote?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out.
    Yes Xiahou , some areas that had almost full turnout at the previous elections are expecting a miraculous 500% increase in their turnout .
    The electoral commission are very happy with this voter miracle

  5. #5
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Editorial in the Washington Post written by a Marine major getting ready to go back for his third tour:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121301502.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Washington Post
    The Truth On the Ground
    By Ben Connable
    Wednesday, December 14, 2005; Page A29

    When I told people that I was getting ready to head back to Iraq for my third tour, the usual response was a frown, a somber head shake and even the occasional "I'm sorry." When I told them that I was glad to be going back, the response was awkward disbelief, a fake smile and a change of subject. The common wisdom seems to be that Iraq is an unwinnable war and a quagmire and that the only thing left to decide is how quickly we withdraw. Depending on which poll you believe, about 60 percent of Americans think it's time to pull out of Iraq.

    How is it, then, that 64 percent of U.S. military officers think we will succeed if we are allowed to continue our work? Why is there such a dramatic divergence between American public opinion and the upbeat assessment of the men and women doing the fighting?

    Open optimism, whether or not it is warranted, is a necessary trait in senior officers and officials. Skeptics can be excused for discounting glowing reports on Iraq from the upper echelons of power. But it is not a simple thing to ignore genuine optimism from mid-grade, junior and noncommissioned officers who have spent much of the past three years in Iraq.

    We know the streets, the people and the insurgents far better than any armchair academic or talking head. As military professionals, we are trained to gauge the chances of success and failure, to calculate risk and reward. We have little to gain from our optimism and quite a bit to lose as we leave our families over and over again to face danger and deprivation for an increasingly unpopular cause. We know that there are no guarantees in war, and that we may well fail in the long run. We also know that if we follow our current plan we can, over time, leave behind a stable and unified country that might help to anchor a better future for the Middle East.

    It is difficult for most Americans to rationalize this optimism in the face of the horrific images and depressing stories that have come to symbolize the war in Iraq. Most of the violent news is true; the death and destruction are very real. But experienced military officers know that the horror stories, however dramatic, do not represent the broader conditions there or the chances for future success. For every vividly portrayed suicide bombing, there are hundreds of thousands of people living quiet, if often uncertain, lives. For every depressing story of unrest and instability there is an untold story of potential and hope. The impression of Iraq as an unfathomable quagmire is false and dangerously misleading.

    It is this false impression that has led us to a moment of national truth. The proponents of the quagmire vision argue that the very presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is the cause of the insurgency and that our withdrawal would give the Iraqis their only true chance for stability. Most military officers and NCOs with ground experience in Iraq know that this vision is patently false. Although the presence of U.S. forces certainly inflames sentiment and provides the insurgents with targets, the anti-coalition insurgency is mostly a symptom of the underlying conditions in Iraq. It may seem paradoxical, but only our presence can buffer the violence enough to allow for eventual stability.

    The precipitous withdrawal of U.S. troops would almost certainly lead to a violent and destabilizing civil war. The Iraqi military is not ready to assume control and would not miraculously achieve competence in our absence. As we left, the insurgency would turn into internecine violence, and Iraq would collapse into a true failed state. The fires of the Iraqi civil war would spread, and terrorists would find a new safe haven from which to launch attacks against our homeland.

    Anyone who has spent even a day in the Middle East should know that the Arab street would not thank us for abandoning Iraq. The blame for civil war would fall squarely on our shoulders. It is unlikely that the tentative experiments in democracy we have seen in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere would survive the fallout. There would be no dividend of goodwill from heartbroken intellectuals or emboldened Islamic extremists. American troops might be home in the short run, but the experienced professionals know that in the long run, quitting Iraq would mean more deployments, more desperate battles and more death.

    Sixty-four percent of us know that we have a good shot at preventing this outcome if we are allowed to continue our mission. We quietly hope that common sense will return to the dialogue on Iraq. Although we hate leaving our families behind, many of us would rather go back to Iraq a hundred times than abandon the Iraqi people.

    A fellow Marine and close friend epitomizes this sentiment. Sean has served two tours in Iraq as a reserve officer. During his last tour, he was informed of the birth of his baby girl by e-mail, learned his father was dying of cancer, and was wounded in the same blast of an improvised explosive that killed his first sergeant on a dirt road in the middle of the western desert. Sean loves his family and his job, but he has made it clear that he would rather go back to Iraq than see us withdraw.

    Everyone in uniform does not share this sentiment. Thirty-six percent of military officers are less confident in the mission. But these officers will continue to work as hard as the rest of us toward success because they, too, are professionals. With men and women such as this, the United States has an excellent chance of success in Iraq. We can fail only if the false imagery of quagmire takes hold and our national political will is broken. In that event, both the Iraqi people and the American troops will pay a long-term price for our shortsighted delusion.
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    agitated Member master of the puppets's Avatar
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    Talking Re: I'm sorry.

    nice, drone, great example. like i said before i can't trust the media or polititions i would rather see a military war paper than the new york times when it comes to the subject of war. i care about the opinions of the people who were there, who saw the faces of those people and know what they think, a grunt in the army has no reason to lie to the public, even an officer does'nt cause it woulds seem that there only desire is to see there country prevail.
    so as soon as my 18th b-day rolls around i'm going to the military, just not sure of which branch yet...suggestions?
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  7. #7
    Member Member KafirChobee's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by drone
    Editorial in the Washington Post written by a Marine major getting ready to go back for his third tour:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121301502.html
    The open divergence from the original topic; and this response, inclines me to respond in kind. First off, just because someone is dumb enough to take 4 tours of duty in an unwinnable situation doesnot make them a spokesman for others that are being forced to do the same - like it is impossible to leave the military now 'til you have served 6 years.

    Two: Just because someone is an officer does not grant them wisdom ... of a military or hearts and minds nature. That someone says "60% of military officers" think we can win is nat a new deal - the same proportion thought the same in 'nam, Lebanon - name a lost cause (the Rebs during our Civil War thought they'ld win in a year - including Lee).

    Three: At any time one sees or hears the use of "officers" as a source for winning an unwinnable situation - they must reffer back to WWI for a reality check on who they are listening to (men that need a war for promotion).

    Four: Back to the cutesy "retired USMC General" that started this entire tirade. Go look him up. Check out his record. Find out how many men were ever under his command - and if any? How many gave their all - and how many letters of condolence did he actually write (versus "your son was a good marine that died well in the service of his country").

    The occupation in Iraq may very well be a noble and necessary "thing". But, proposing the idea that the men dying there are doing it for anything but the ego of lesser men is bogus. If we pull out tomorrow or in 10 years, it will all be the same - except for the number of Americans on the newly planned "Wall".
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  8. #8
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out.
    Yes Xiahou , some areas that had almost full turnout at the previous elections are expecting a miraculous 500% increase in their turnout .
    The electoral commission are very happy with this voter miracle
    So, do you have any evidence for that or are ya just talking out of your ass as per normal?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    So, do you have any evidence for that or are ya just talking out of your ass as per normal?

    Ah such venom from the dearest Xiahou , it must be that time of the month for elections .
    So which evidence would you like , would you like the statement from one of the Kurdish parties saying how their registration campiaign is really going to pay off ?
    Or would you like the one from the electoral commission saying WTF , do you think we are really that stupid ?

  10. #10
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    So, do you have any evidence for that or are ya just talking out of your ass as per normal?

    Ah such venom from the dearest Xiahou , it must be that time of the month for elections .
    The smilie means it's a joke- you of all people should know that.

    Good job still not providing anything to back up your claims though. Maybe I was right?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 12-14-2005 at 22:49.
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