I'm sorry.

[Reverend Joe]

Cut and run? Brilliant idea, so all the money we spent and lives that were given can go down the shithole?

It will still go down the ****ter if we stay. I mean, do you really expect the ARVNs- sorry, the Iraqi security forces - to keep stability for more than a year, at the most?

[Strike For The South]

It will still go down the ****ter if we stay. I mean, do you really expect the ARVNs- sorry, the Iraqi security forces - to keep stability for more than a year, at the most?

YUP. The goverment is going to fail so I choose the option where not as many americans die for a country which will just break up anyway

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I love my crystal ball too.


Edit: *scrying away*, woooooooooooo

[Strike For The South]

I love my crystal ball too.

Dont you...I love my pride as well

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

All you need is pride and clairvoyance.

[Xiahou]

YUP. The goverment is going to fail so I choose the option where not as many americans die for a country which will just break up anyway

That's nonsense. A breakup and civil war are not forgone conclusions. Most Iraqis want democracy to succeed and this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out. Our forces need to remain to provide stability until democratic institutions take hold. We also need to continue clearing insurgent strongholds and garrisoning them with Iraqi forces.

[Strike For The South]

That's nonsense. A breakup and civil war are not forgone conclusions. Most Iraqis want democracy to succeed and this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out. Our forces need to remain to provide stability until democratic institutions take hold. We also need to continue clearing insurgent strongholds and garrisoning them with Iraqi forces.

I havent seen any democracy loving Iraqis. Everyday its "Suicide bombing, ambush, beheading." Sure there are probably some but its not enough. We are just breeding more hate from the Iraqis towards us towards the ethnic groups in the reigon. Hell these guys are fighting eachother now with us there. Sure we can kill insurgents but we will never get all of them. I say leave and let them sort it out its not if but when and I perfer we leave now

[Ice]

It will still go down the ****ter if we stay. I mean, do you really expect the ARVNs- sorry, the Iraqi security forces - to keep stability for more than a year, at the most?

We aren't going to leave anytime soon. I predict we will have bases and mass troop numbers for 50+ years. If we leave, shit will break lose.



STFS SAID

I havent seen any democracy loving Iraqis. Everyday its "Suicide bombing, ambush, beheading." Sure there are probably some but its not enough. We are just breeding more hate from the Iraqis towards us towards the ethnic groups in the reigon. Hell these guys are fighting eachother now with us there. Sure we can kill insurgents but we will never get all of them. I say leave and let them sort it out its not if but when and I perfer we leave now

The insurgents and bombers dont speak for all Iraqi people, just like Islamic terrorists dont speak for all of Islam. You actually haven't see any democracy loving Iraqis? I'm pretty sure that day they tore the statue of Saddam down, there were some people cheering there. They sure as hell weren't dictator loving people. They want to go to school, run businesses, and live without fear just like the rest of the world.

[Strike For The South]

The insurgents and bombers dont speak for all Iraqi people, just like Islamic terrorists dont speak for all of Islam. You actually haven't see any democracy loving Iraqis? I'm pretty sure that day they tore the statue of Saddam down, there were some people cheering there. They sure as hell weren't dictator loving people. They want to go to school, run businesses, and live without fear just like the rest of the world.

Yes they hated Saddam and they hate us to. They may want to do all that Ghost but provided a couple things

1.No Americans
2.Domianice over the other ethnic group

They majority dont wont democracy they want power. I refuse to sit here and allow America get in the crossfire of a barbic civil war

[Soulforged]

I don't know what's really the purpose behind this apology, but it's the most futile, trivial and inhumane piece of crap that I had read in many time. I don't know how this can be called an apology when the same writer makes the same mistakes that were criticized over the administration over and over.

I'm sorry that apologies don't change the real world.

[Proletariat]

SFTS, what you're saying seems tantamount to saying that all black guys steal TVs because that's what gets the coverage on the 11 o'clock news each night.

Do you think Iraqis are incapable of democracy? Have you seen the latest polling out of Iraq?

http://bareknucklepolitics.com/?p=466

[Ice]

Yes they hated Saddam and they hate us to. They may want to do all that Ghost but provided a couple things

1.No Americans
2.Domianice over the other ethnic group

They majority dont wont democracy they want power. I refuse to sit here and allow America get in the crossfire of a barbic civil war

Its understandable they don't want us, but this to work we have to be there for a while. They only hate us because of what is going on. We are getting the brunt of shit when a carbomb goes of or some runs a jeep filled with explosives into a full cafe. Like I said before though, we got ourselves into it, we need to get ourselves out. Leaving won't do shit besides make everything else work. Dominace? The Shiitte should have dominace, they have the majority of people. That is what democracy is all about, it's the will of the people. I hate to say it, but the Kurds and Sunnis are going to have to except this under the new system. Yes people want democracy, yes people want power. You will always have ur power whores in every country.

[Xiahou]

I havent seen any democracy loving Iraqis. Everyday its "Suicide bombing, ambush, beheading."

Blame the media for that- not the Iraqis. What about the millions that risked their lives by coming out to vote in the last 2 elections or the millions more that will be coming out this week to elect their first democratic government in decades. Why are they risking murder and death to vote?

[Tribesman]

this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out.
Yes Xiahou , some areas that had almost full turnout at the previous elections are expecting a miraculous 500% increase in their turnout .
The electoral commission are very happy with this voter miracle

[drone]

Editorial in the Washington Post written by a Marine major getting ready to go back for his third tour:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121301502.html

The Truth On the Ground
By Ben Connable
Wednesday, December 14, 2005; Page A29

When I told people that I was getting ready to head back to Iraq for my third tour, the usual response was a frown, a somber head shake and even the occasional "I'm sorry." When I told them that I was glad to be going back, the response was awkward disbelief, a fake smile and a change of subject. The common wisdom seems to be that Iraq is an unwinnable war and a quagmire and that the only thing left to decide is how quickly we withdraw. Depending on which poll you believe, about 60 percent of Americans think it's time to pull out of Iraq.

How is it, then, that 64 percent of U.S. military officers think we will succeed if we are allowed to continue our work? Why is there such a dramatic divergence between American public opinion and the upbeat assessment of the men and women doing the fighting?

Open optimism, whether or not it is warranted, is a necessary trait in senior officers and officials. Skeptics can be excused for discounting glowing reports on Iraq from the upper echelons of power. But it is not a simple thing to ignore genuine optimism from mid-grade, junior and noncommissioned officers who have spent much of the past three years in Iraq.

We know the streets, the people and the insurgents far better than any armchair academic or talking head. As military professionals, we are trained to gauge the chances of success and failure, to calculate risk and reward. We have little to gain from our optimism and quite a bit to lose as we leave our families over and over again to face danger and deprivation for an increasingly unpopular cause. We know that there are no guarantees in war, and that we may well fail in the long run. We also know that if we follow our current plan we can, over time, leave behind a stable and unified country that might help to anchor a better future for the Middle East.

It is difficult for most Americans to rationalize this optimism in the face of the horrific images and depressing stories that have come to symbolize the war in Iraq. Most of the violent news is true; the death and destruction are very real. But experienced military officers know that the horror stories, however dramatic, do not represent the broader conditions there or the chances for future success. For every vividly portrayed suicide bombing, there are hundreds of thousands of people living quiet, if often uncertain, lives. For every depressing story of unrest and instability there is an untold story of potential and hope. The impression of Iraq as an unfathomable quagmire is false and dangerously misleading.

It is this false impression that has led us to a moment of national truth. The proponents of the quagmire vision argue that the very presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is the cause of the insurgency and that our withdrawal would give the Iraqis their only true chance for stability. Most military officers and NCOs with ground experience in Iraq know that this vision is patently false. Although the presence of U.S. forces certainly inflames sentiment and provides the insurgents with targets, the anti-coalition insurgency is mostly a symptom of the underlying conditions in Iraq. It may seem paradoxical, but only our presence can buffer the violence enough to allow for eventual stability.

The precipitous withdrawal of U.S. troops would almost certainly lead to a violent and destabilizing civil war. The Iraqi military is not ready to assume control and would not miraculously achieve competence in our absence. As we left, the insurgency would turn into internecine violence, and Iraq would collapse into a true failed state. The fires of the Iraqi civil war would spread, and terrorists would find a new safe haven from which to launch attacks against our homeland.

Anyone who has spent even a day in the Middle East should know that the Arab street would not thank us for abandoning Iraq. The blame for civil war would fall squarely on our shoulders. It is unlikely that the tentative experiments in democracy we have seen in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere would survive the fallout. There would be no dividend of goodwill from heartbroken intellectuals or emboldened Islamic extremists. American troops might be home in the short run, but the experienced professionals know that in the long run, quitting Iraq would mean more deployments, more desperate battles and more death.

Sixty-four percent of us know that we have a good shot at preventing this outcome if we are allowed to continue our mission. We quietly hope that common sense will return to the dialogue on Iraq. Although we hate leaving our families behind, many of us would rather go back to Iraq a hundred times than abandon the Iraqi people.

A fellow Marine and close friend epitomizes this sentiment. Sean has served two tours in Iraq as a reserve officer. During his last tour, he was informed of the birth of his baby girl by e-mail, learned his father was dying of cancer, and was wounded in the same blast of an improvised explosive that killed his first sergeant on a dirt road in the middle of the western desert. Sean loves his family and his job, but he has made it clear that he would rather go back to Iraq than see us withdraw.

Everyone in uniform does not share this sentiment. Thirty-six percent of military officers are less confident in the mission. But these officers will continue to work as hard as the rest of us toward success because they, too, are professionals. With men and women such as this, the United States has an excellent chance of success in Iraq. We can fail only if the false imagery of quagmire takes hold and our national political will is broken. In that event, both the Iraqi people and the American troops will pay a long-term price for our shortsighted delusion.

[master of the puppets]

nice, drone, great example. like i said before i can't trust the media or polititions i would rather see a military war paper than the new york times when it comes to the subject of war. i care about the opinions of the people who were there, who saw the faces of those people and know what they think, a grunt in the army has no reason to lie to the public, even an officer does'nt cause it woulds seem that there only desire is to see there country prevail.
so as soon as my 18th b-day rolls around i'm going to the military, just not sure of which branch yet...suggestions?

[Geoffrey S]

...would you rather be in the hands of americans as a POW or of some insurgent, tell in which you would expect to find mercy and goodness?

That this should even be a matter of debate, that it should come down to a comparison between the way the US treats prisoners relative to prisoners' treatment from terrorists, shows how deep the problem runs. There's no way the US should even allow themselves to be seen to be on the same level as those they oppose, let alone actually sinking that low.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Yes they hated Saddam and they hate us to. They may want to do all that Ghost but provided a couple things

1.No Americans
2.Domianice over the other ethnic group

They majority dont wont democracy they want power. I refuse to sit here and allow America get in the crossfire of a barbic civil war

Just so you know, most of the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq are imports from Syria.

[Hurin_Rules]

Only 64% of US soldiers think they have a chance of winning?

And this is cited as a good sign?

[Hurin_Rules]

Just so you know, most of the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq are imports from Syria.

And you can prove this contentious allegation how?

[Ja'chyra]

And you can prove this contentious allegation how?

Duh, he asked them

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Only 64% of US soldiers think they have a chance of winning?

And this is cited as a good sign?

64% is a majority. Ask the men on the Bataan marches if they thought they'd make it out alive.

And you can prove this contentious allegation how?

Can you disprove it?

Almost all of the terrorist groups operating in Iraq are led by non-Iraqis and made up primarily of non-Iraqis. You just want to sabatoge our actions in the Middle East to further your sick political goals.

[Ser Clegane]

You just want to sabatoge our actions in the Middle East to further your sick political goals.

I suggest that you refrain from making personal attacks

[Hurin_Rules]

64% is a majority. Ask the men on the Bataan marches if they thought they'd make it out alive.

Yes, and we all know how well that worked out.

Can you disprove it?

Sorry, but you made the allegation, and so the onus is on you to prove it.

Here are links to considerable evidence to the contrary, from liberal and conservative sources alike, including the Christian Science Monitor, various Washington think tanks, the Associated Press, etc.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...111602519.html

Note the conclusions:
"The US and Iraqi governments have vastly overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, and most of them don’t come from Saudi Arabia, according to a new report (PDF) from the Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS)."

You just want to sabatoge our actions in the Middle East to further your sick political goals.

I don't reply to personal attacks.

[Ice]

Glad to see another article posted by a senior officer. I agree 100% with what he said.

[Xiahou]

this current round of elections promises to have an unprecedented turn out.
Yes Xiahou , some areas that had almost full turnout at the previous elections are expecting a miraculous 500% increase in their turnout .
The electoral commission are very happy with this voter miracle

So, do you have any evidence for that or are ya just talking out of your ass as per normal?

[Tribesman]

So, do you have any evidence for that or are ya just talking out of your ass as per normal?

Ah such venom from the dearest Xiahou , it must be that time of the month for elections .
So which evidence would you like , would you like the statement from one of the Kurdish parties saying how their registration campiaign is really going to pay off ?
Or would you like the one from the electoral commission saying WTF , do you think we are really that stupid ?

[Xiahou]

So, do you have any evidence for that or are ya just talking out of your ass as per normal?

Ah such venom from the dearest Xiahou , it must be that time of the month for elections .

The smilie means it's a joke- you of all people should know that.

Good job still not providing anything to back up your claims though. Maybe I was right?

[Adrian II]

Glad to see another article posted by a senior officer. I agree 100% with what he said.

Since when is Mike Adams a senior officer?

[Hurin_Rules]

I think this is all getting us rather far from the salient fact:

We all now know that the article in the original post that started this thread was fake. Is 'Chuck Pitman' even a real person? Who knows.

But it does suggest a few things:

1. Post links to your sources, so that they can be properly evaluated.

2. Refrain from making allegations that you can't back up with facts.

3. Know the difference between blogs (on the right or the left) and more credible news sources (the latter being the ones that double check their sources and provide evidence for them).

Mistakes are inevitable, of course, but so long as you post the links and sources so that we can evaluate them in an honest and objective manner, we won't have to waste our time with such false, malicious crap.