Religious intolerance or freedom of speech.

[Adrian II]

Pffft, the french editor got fired bleh.

*

take me baby

Read me, baby.

[LeftEyeNine]

..In an editorial they write the following (my translation): 'Islam prohibits its believers to depict the Prophet in any way (..) the question that arises is the following: should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement?..

I bet my all that there are bunch of sites around in the trash can called internet that has gone even worse with such religious figures. The point is that there should be a point where publicized organizations and people should show responsibility. This is an easily irritated nerve, it is obvious. Would you say the same "application of prohobition to those that are non-blah blah" statement (or BS) if a nationwide newspaper in Turkey charicaturized one wiping somewhere with some European country's flag ? Come on, you can distinguish nuances.

[Adrian II]

I bet my all that there are bunch of sites around in the trash can called internet that has gone even worse with such religious figures. The point is that there should be a point where publicized organizations and people should show responsibility. This is an easily irritated nerve, it is obvious. Would you say the same "application of prohobition to those that are non-blah blah" statement (or BS) if a nationwide newspaper in Turkey charicaturized one wiping somewhere with some European country's flag ? Come on, you can distinguish nuances.

There are many relevant considerations, but amid all these, the right to free speech comes first. Equating Mohammed's message to a call for terrorism is neither appropriate nor helpful, but it is legitimate to express this view in word or image. Deal with it. I would not print most of the Danish caricatures myself but the freedom of others to do so is inviolable.

If the Prophet objects, he can file a complaint or take the issue to civil court. So can his followers.

EDIT
And about the 'flag wiping', I for one wouldn't stop buying Turkish if it happened.

[Fragony]

EDIT
And about the 'flag wiping', I for one wouldn't stop buying Turkish if it happened.

This really comes as a shock

[Sjakihata]

Btw, Adrian do you enjoy the danish pølser? Since it is not really working, I hope you like them at least

[Adrian II]

Btw, Adrian do you enjoy the danish pølser? Since it is not really working, I hope you like them at least

To be honest I was joking about the pølser orgy. But we have looked around for Danish stuff in the supermarket and shops yesterday. We came up with Danish butter, cheese (Danablue and Esrom), a tin of 'Danish sausages' (not sure these are pølser), a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf, and some bottles of the inevitable Carlsberg.

A second round might turn up more goodies though. Any suggestions?

[Sjakihata]

a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf,

This made me laugh incredible hard, what a silly name for something like kaviar, doesnt sound very encouraging at all.

If you like herring, try some Glyngøre products, carlsberg and tuborg are all right, but since you live in holland/belgium I wundt sacrifice a good blegian beer - even to support denmark.

[Adrian II]

If you like herring, try some Glyngøre products (..)

Of course! Why didn't I think of that before? You guys export all these flat tins with herring in various sauces and marinades, the stuff you use for your smørrebrød. Delicious!

[Fragony]

To be honest I was joking about the pølser orgy. But we have looked around for Danish stuff in the supermarket and shops yesterday. We came up with Danish butter, cheese (Danablue and Esrom), a tin of 'Danish sausages' (not sure these are pølser), a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf, and some bottles of the inevitable Carlsberg.

A second round might turn up more goodies though. Any suggestions?

Remoulade mia muca. Best sauce ever, especially from Graasten Salater. And now that you go viking, buy the movie 'Festen'. Greatest movie ever made.

[LeftEyeNine]

There are many relevant considerations, but amid all these, the right to free speech comes first. Equating Mohammed's message to a call for terrorism is neither appropriate nor helpful, but it is legitimate to express this view in word or image. Deal with it. I would not print most of the Danish caricatures myself but the freedom of others to do so is inviolable.

If the Prophet objects, he can file a complaint or take the issue to civil court. So can his followers.

Responsibility is a must when it is international.. Can't agree.. Whatever..

What were these Danish tastes you were talkin' about again ?

P.S. Any fan of Swedish chef in Muppet Show here ?

[Adrian II]

Responsibility is a must when it is international.

So is truth. And truth can only be established in free debate, supported by freedom of thought, speech, print and movement. I agree with you that acting responsibly is a moral imperative, hence my rejection of the Danish caricatures as unsuitable and inappropriate. But I support the right of people to depict any prophet any way they fancy. I sincerely hope the other side will show some moral responsibility by not burning national symbols and issuing death threats.

P.S. Any fan of Swedish chef in Muppet Show here ?

Hey hey, vhu du yuoo theenk is hees beeggest fan un zee .org mork mork?

[Adrian II]

Remoulade mia muca.

Thank you, mi dushi.

And now that you go viking, buy the movie 'Festen'. Greatest movie ever made.

What makes you think I never watched it? I saw most Dogma movies, but I like Von Trier and particularly his Breaking the Waves best.

[Fragony]

What makes you think I never watched it?

You didn't start about it ;)

Best movies are made in Scandinavia anyway, have you seen Fanny och Alexander(full cut, 6 hours!)? And Breaking the waves is very good indeed, Lars von Trier is arrogant and pretentious, and rightfully so. The only 'bad' one is the Idiots, it just doesn't work. He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....

[Vladimir]

This event and the French riots are snapshots into Europe's future. White Europe is dying and the freedom of speech may die with them. If the demographic trend continues "traditional" Europeans will become a minority. Germany and France have been unwilling and unable to assimilate their immigrant population and it seems that Denmark and the UK face a similar problem. The US also is having an immigration problem. Personally, I think I'm going to learn Chinese .

[Husar]

Now, what about me trying to force some of my chrisitan values in islamic countries? What if "my heart bleeds"(free quote from a muslim on another board) everytime I hear that my saviour Jesus christ is called "just" a prophet?

[LeftEyeNine]

Now, what about me trying to force some of my chrisitan values in islamic countries? What if "my heart bleeds"(free quote from a muslim on another board) everytime I hear that my saviour Jesus christ is called "just" a prophet?

Jesus is one of the most respected prophets in Islam. No matter how Christianity was deformed, Islam mentions Jesus being holy - like the other prophets are. Islam world has a dense population of mis-interpretors, added the low-life-standard followers, the mess here we are talking about happens.

I'd recommend to ignore such fanatics whereever they are - just like sometimes I do on this forum as well, especially when it is a Islam bashing topic.

[rory_20_uk]

I feel that although the pictures were in poor taste, I feel that for those that don't like seeing things like that DON'T LOOK AT THEM! Follow this "turn the other cheek" part of whatever religion you preach!

religion can make me not get to go to the shops, take my shoes off, restrict what I do and where I do it, and all of this I am supposed to accept without a word of protest. And if I argue a theological point again this isn't socially acceptable, but I have to put up with whatever religious conventions are thrown in my direction.

A few years ago a Roman Catholic friend of the family was amazed that my brother bought a film on DVD - just couldn't understand it. I was told that it was rude to tell her that my brother "believed it was the right thing to do" as that was going to be an impolite comment.

I am sure that it is not true of all followers of Islam, but significant sections are acting rather like Christinanity did about 500 years ago... then the weapons were not as powerful though.

[InsaneApache]

Well if you look at how they have developed their infrastructure and economies they are in the dark ages. Without the oil they would be be in a very poor condition economically.

I believe that religion (ie Islam) is holding back the renaissance that the Arab world (and others) needs, to throw off the shackles of unenlightenment and oppression.

It is no coincidence that the industrial revolution was started in England. We had in place the free thinking and educational establishments that was needed to achieve this.

[Sjakihata]

It is no coincidence that the industrial revolution was started in England. We had in place the free thinking and educational establishments that was needed to achieve this.

Well, enlightenment is only a minor factor for the industrial revolution. Much more important factors like geography, location, import/export, coal, infrastructure, political climate etc was the main reasons.

But it's all wrong, the revolution should have started in Russia, some aliens must have intervened. Oh wait, that's not the industrial revolution, but the permanent one.

[rory_20_uk]

And why do Sikhs carry daggers, have long hair and wear a bracelet? I think that this goes right back to times when Sikhs were actively warring with Muslims - have a weapon on hand to kill the enemy, and be different so you know who he is.

The BBC website mentions at least one reason why Islam gets so hot under the collar about symbols of Allah. And from the extremely tame language in the Koran (chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him.") someone at some point blew things out of all proportion!

It's a new century people! Adapt!!! Apparently from the Koran it's easy to come with a society where women and men are equal and killing people over cartoons is even frowned on. Re-read the text and come up with something new as opposed to following Shi'ia Law, that after all is only interpretations by men and not god.

Maybe it's just me but some religions carry far too much dogma around with them, and find debate to be completely inimnical to themselves. I think that if something can't hold up to discussion it has to be deeply flawed.

[Vladimir]

I am sure that it is not true of all followers of Islam, but significant sections are acting rather like Christinanity did about 500 years ago... then the weapons were not as powerful though.

That is what I am starting to think. I'm also starting to think up comparisons between burning people at the steak and burning cities with nukes (Iran).

[Fragony]

Read me, baby.

It says he got fired.

[Adrian II]

It says he got fired.

There's my boy.

[Lazul]

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian.

Anyway, bruning the flags of countries that have a rather solid nationalistic far right movements isnt the best thing to do. Now they will gain support and then shit might hit the fan.

Just wait a little and some semi-nazi priest in Scandinavia will call for a crusade on the middle-east and so on.

.... humans are pathetic.

[LeftEyeNine]

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian.

Anyway, bruning the flags of countries that have a rather solid nationalistic far right movements isnt the best thing to do. Now they will gain support and then shit might hit the fan.

Just wait a little and some semi-nazi priest in Scandinavia will call for a crusade on the middle-east and so on.

.... humans are pathetic.

Seconded.

[Sjakihata]

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian.

They are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, because a paper in denmark printed the caricatures, and a norewegian paper reprinted the cartoons. Sweden isnt involved yet, so no need to burn your flag, yet.

[Ironside]

They are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, because a paper in denmark printed the caricatures, and a norewegian paper reprinted the cartoons. Sweden isnt involved yet, so no need to burn your flag, yet.

They showed up in a debate article in GT roughly when this started, but appearently the extremists found that lumping Sweden together with Denmark on this issue was wrong and they corrected themself later on.